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archangels ghosts and Bigfoot oh my it's

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just another night for Supernatural

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girls real stories real answers to

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life's biggest supernatural mysteries

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and now for another exciting interview

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with Errol experts in this world and

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others here's your host paranormal

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researcher Patricia Baker on the one the

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only

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[Music]

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welcome everyone to another exciting

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episode of Supernatural girls radio I'm

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your host Fitz Tricia Baker I am here

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with my co-host Patricia Kirkman PK all

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the way from Tucson how are you tonight

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I'm just basking in the sunlight today

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82 degrees today what can I say I feel

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so sporting and as well no this won't

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last long but for the next couple of

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days it's supposed to be warm oh good

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for you well I'm happy for ya hey do we

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have a great guest tonight or what gosh

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absolutely fabulous we're gonna bring

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him out in a couple of minutes he is a

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very exciting guy he's one of our

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favorite people we've had him on before

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and of course you don't know if you

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heard him before you know he's a

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terrific guest but tonight we are

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talking about the CIA secret experiments

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with Paul and his new book which is how

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blowing America's mind we are gonna get

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to all the secret stuff that happened

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way back then and we have a lot to talk

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about but before we go there PK what is

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happening we've got this these secrets

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are still coming out aren't they just

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like you said they would

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they definitely Aaron we're gonna see

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even more coming up but you know we're

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taking a look at this trifecta that

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we've just had with the moon and they

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always say that major things take place

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after these take place and so we took a

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look to see what happened when the the

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last one we had was 152 years ago so it

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shouldn't but look to see what was going

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on yeah if you remember this is today is

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a day where people don't know who or

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what to trust secrets are all about

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what's happening so we're gonna get more

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of it in our interview with our favorite

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person here about the blowin America's

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mind but the thing is Lincoln was

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assassinated 152 years ago the Civil War

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ended Steamship in London syncs killing

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20 people the SPCA was formed Charles

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Harris invented root beer that's the

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most pleasant thing that's the best

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thing yet yeah the animal protection but

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there was a great fire in Quebec which

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destroyed 225 hundred houses and then

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someone threw a firecracker which

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started a fire destroying one half of

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Portland Maine and then the color

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epidemic kills a hundred hundreds I

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should say plural in London so god only

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knows what the major changes that we're

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going to see now taking place since

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we've just had this trifecta because

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that happened in the past one hundred

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fifty two years ago so we don't know

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what's gonna happen now but one of the

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things are that people are very restless

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not knowing who or what to trust

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and secrets are just chomping at the bit

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to jump out and be made known so we're

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gonna have to pay attention to some of

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that and as you're finding some of these

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things out

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do you remember don't always trust what

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you think you heard

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double-check some of these things just

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to be on the safe side we've got a good

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example of trusting with looking at the

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book blowing America's mind because it's

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all validated it's shown in it's been

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black and white right in front of us

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yeah it's so get rid we've got this memo

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that's gonna be coming out any minute

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now oh I cannot wait it's about time

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that we get to see what's really been

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going on so it's just like you predicted

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so many secrets are gonna come out

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there's no holding them back we are

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gonna get to the bottom of a number of

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things that were forbidden before so

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okay that's perfect but the other thing

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is get rid of what no longer serviced

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you whether it's these secret things

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going on or you know this things

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happening don't just sit back anymore

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jump in the middle that get things out

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let's clear the air once and for all

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somebody's eyes spinning yeah well it's

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about time that we get to hear a little

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bit about the truth so

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I'm hoping this memo will shed some

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light and we'll begin to see something

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of what's been going on behind our backs

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hey did you think they were like

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listening in on us hmm

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they could have been they could have

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been you know goddess we've talked a lot

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I'll talk a lot about UFOs and secret

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projects so well now they do maybe teach

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them something I certainly since they

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don't seem to want to listen to what

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they already know know so we might be

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able to teach them a thing or two you

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know yeah let's go for it is long

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overdue so on that note let's talk a

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little bit about who are gonna be

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talking to tonight now again as I

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mentioned this guest of ours Paul

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Jeffrey David's he's a Hollywood

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producer he's a very successful

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Hollywood guy and he's he's also a

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Princeton graduate very smart young man

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back then very smart older man now and

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he is gonna tell us all about what

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happened to him and his friend a

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co-author John Snivy this new book that

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you have holding in your hand and I'm

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holding in mind see yeah it is yes

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fabulous it's great fabulous you were

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talking about before we get on the air

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this is a it's like a novel I mean it

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needs like you just want to turn those

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pages because it's it's a great story

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it's a scary story though it's just a

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stinky story this can be done in quote

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our country yes it happened behind the

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Iron Curtain in places like that uh uh

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right here at Princeton so let's bring

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our guest on so Paul welcome to the

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stove Thank You Patricia and piqué I

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really appreciated that rousing

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introduction and the recommendation of

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blowing America's mind it is wonderful

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for us that you wrote it yeah thank you

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for writing it and enlightening all of

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us mean we've known about we've heard

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about MKULTRA we've we've heard some

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some tales about what's been going on

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but you lived it you and John Selby so

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tell us about how you got in

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I mean we've read the book but our

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audience is new to this so if you could

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share with us how this happened I mean

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it was kind of a slow process of them

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taking you under their wing tell them

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tell us all what the heck happened back

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then I'm happy to Patricia

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let me first clarify what you mean by

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back then yes John Selby and I are

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writing about what happened to us when

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we were psychology majors at Princeton

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University back in the late 1960s and we

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both stumbled into very unusual

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employment at the New Jersey

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neuropsychiatric Institute which was

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near Princeton and which had researchers

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there they had psychiatrists

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psychologists some of whom were

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affiliated with Princeton and some of

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whom were not we had no idea when we

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volunteered to be guinea pigs really in

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deep hypnosis research and LSD research

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that it was funded by the CIA we'd never

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heard of MKULTRA no one had back in the

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late 1960s it didn't become Declassified

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at all for ten years later so we got

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involved in the program with false

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assumptions you know from what we were

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told about what we were going to be

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involved in to give you the setting a

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little bit more it was a very special

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time well not only that it was the late

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1960s and the Beatles had come out with

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sergeant pepper's Lonely Hearts Club

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Band this is that era but Princeton was

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then still an all-male school it has

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changed drastically it went co-ed in the

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fall of 1969 and it said a lot of very

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distinguished lady graduates including

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Michelle Obama and two Supreme Court

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justices current ones Eleanor Kagan

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Sonia Sotomayor

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they went to Princeton but Princeton for

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you know hundreds of years was a male

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bastion it was

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an all-male institution it was quite

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exclusive the rich dominated Princeton

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for many years their eating clubs their

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exclusive clubs most of the students

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from most of the years of Princeton

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existence were you know very privileged

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and came from wealthy families but then

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things changed you know by we got to the

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1960s and I was a kid from Maryland from

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suburban Maryland not from a rich or

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exclusive family Jewish background and

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my father a college professor my mother

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a teacher and my co-author John Selby

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who lived all this with me we were

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telling you the true story what happened

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to us then he's from he's from a cattle

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ranch so he really is a cowboy you know

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he grew up practically on horseback and

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he came into Princeton

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like I don't know if you ever saw

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Midnight Cowboy it was like you know

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John Foy the cowboy going to New York

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you know is completely out of place well

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John Selby no pretty out of place at

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Princeton and I felt out of place in an

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all-male environment so when I walked

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down Nassau Street the street in front

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of the university there's a kiosk there

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this is way before we got our

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information from the internet there

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would be ads posted on the kiosk

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announcements of student meetings clubs

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you could join projects and there was

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one that I saw that said New Jersey

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neuropsychiatric Institute looking for

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deep hypnosis subjects you know you'll

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be trained to undergo deep hypnosis at

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least once a week and these sessions

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will open you love you know it presented

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itself as something that would diminish

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your inhibitions

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you'd have greater consciousness some

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terrific experiences even improve your

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college boy right away wouldn't it yeah

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so I checked into it and learned very

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quickly that the head of the program

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there was a very famous psychiatrist

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named dr. Humphrey Osmond

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now if you've ever in your life said the

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word psychedelic dr. Humphrey Osmond

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came up with that term it means mind

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manifesting he was a psychiatrist

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originally from England then went to

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Saskatchewan Canada where he

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participated in peyote rituals with the

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Native American church that's mescaline

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and he began researching the category of

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drugs that mescaline is part of which

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includes lsd-25 includes psilocybin the

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magic mushrooms and he wanted a better

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term than what they were using then

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which was psychotropic drugs or ceccato

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mimetic meaning mimics psychosis so as a

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curious researching psychiatrist he

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asked himself the question do these

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drugs really mimic psychosis if you take

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LSD and you have you go off on an 8 to

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10 12-hour trip this extraordinary

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experience which changes all your

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perceptions but makes it almost

273
00:13:34,519 --> 00:13:30,449
impossible to function you know in a

274
00:13:36,980 --> 00:13:34,529
normal sort of way are you inducing a

275
00:13:39,139 --> 00:13:36,990
temporary psychosis on yourself is that

276
00:13:41,809 --> 00:13:39,149
what a schizophrenic who's in a mental

277
00:13:45,230 --> 00:13:41,819
hospital sees and thinks and feels or is

278
00:13:46,850 --> 00:13:45,240
it something very different so he was

279
00:13:50,389 --> 00:13:46,860
into this research before he got

280
00:13:52,999 --> 00:13:50,399
involved with the CIA now the CIA why

281
00:13:55,879 --> 00:13:53,009
the CIA why did they have their hands in

282
00:13:57,799 --> 00:13:55,889
this yes exactly you know and feel free

283
00:14:03,980 --> 00:13:57,809
by the way I'm this is sort of a

284
00:14:12,850 --> 00:14:07,160
so the build-up to it take us through it

285
00:14:16,429 --> 00:14:12,860
the CIA going back to the early 1950s

286
00:14:19,129 --> 00:14:16,439
realized that Russia was involved with

287
00:14:21,530 --> 00:14:19,139
the Soviet Union was involved with mind

288
00:14:26,269 --> 00:14:21,540
control research

289
00:14:28,939 --> 00:14:26,279
and research of esoteric drugs and in

290
00:14:31,910 --> 00:14:28,949
the aftermath of the Korean War where

291
00:14:36,319 --> 00:14:31,920
there was brainwashing of prisoners of

292
00:14:37,490 --> 00:14:36,329
war you know the CIA the military wanted

293
00:14:40,249 --> 00:14:37,500
to find out what was done to these

294
00:14:42,559 --> 00:14:40,259
people how are they changed how are they

295
00:14:44,449 --> 00:14:42,569
manipulated was there hypnosis involved

296
00:14:49,009 --> 00:14:44,459
what drugs were involved what was done

297
00:14:52,910 --> 00:14:49,019
to them so they initiated project

298
00:14:54,710 --> 00:14:52,920
MKULTRA but I don't know from the

299
00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:54,720
beginning could they have ever conceived

300
00:15:01,720 --> 00:14:56,930
that what they were really going to do

301
00:15:05,059 --> 00:15:01,730
was fund this thing to the hilt through

302
00:15:07,689 --> 00:15:05,069
you know black-budget top-secret dummy

303
00:15:10,610 --> 00:15:07,699
corporations that were the paymaster's

304
00:15:13,069 --> 00:15:10,620
inducing psychiatrists and psychologists

305
00:15:18,590 --> 00:15:13,079
all across the country to participate in

306
00:15:22,670 --> 00:15:18,600
their research on these things and you

307
00:15:28,579 --> 00:15:22,680
know as I read it now from what's been

308
00:15:32,329 --> 00:15:28,589
released there were 149 known mind

309
00:15:35,930 --> 00:15:32,339
control projects at 86 American

310
00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:35,940
institutions this spend some time

311
00:15:41,420 --> 00:15:37,290
thinking about what it means

312
00:15:43,639 --> 00:15:41,430
86 I'm talking about prisoners I am

313
00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:43,649
talking about experiments on military

314
00:15:49,879 --> 00:15:45,810
people but I'm also talking about

315
00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:49,889
experiments in hospitals and at colleges

316
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:53,130
universities and private research

317
00:15:59,870 --> 00:15:56,250
centers like New Jersey neuropsychiatric

318
00:16:01,970 --> 00:15:59,880
is that that was just one one experiment

319
00:16:04,460 --> 00:16:01,980
that I walked into in a absolutely

320
00:16:07,550 --> 00:16:04,470
massive program all across the country

321
00:16:14,900 --> 00:16:07,560
many of the guinea pigs had no idea that

322
00:16:16,970 --> 00:16:14,910
they were being used we never told

323
00:16:18,620 --> 00:16:16,980
anything you're a hospital agent and

324
00:16:22,249 --> 00:16:18,630
you're given an experimental drug and

325
00:16:24,019 --> 00:16:22,259
you they're studying you you know and

326
00:16:25,550 --> 00:16:24,029
you don't know that yeah and and even

327
00:16:28,879 --> 00:16:25,560
with you when you were looking at the

328
00:16:30,559 --> 00:16:28,889
kiosk notification yeah they just talked

329
00:16:33,740 --> 00:16:30,569
about deep hypnosis they didn't talk

330
00:16:36,499 --> 00:16:33,750
about the LSD they didn't talk about any

331
00:16:39,679 --> 00:16:36,509
else just that this was going to be

332
00:16:44,030 --> 00:16:39,689
possibly a good thing for you right so

333
00:16:45,740 --> 00:16:44,040
right yeah that's very deceptive so of

334
00:16:47,030 --> 00:16:45,750
course they didn't want their subjects

335
00:16:51,769 --> 00:16:47,040
to be aware of what they were looking

336
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:51,779
for we found out the truth about all of

337
00:16:57,920 --> 00:16:54,810
this about ten years later so when when

338
00:17:02,119 --> 00:16:57,930
you read blowing America's mind you're

339
00:17:04,429 --> 00:17:02,129
inside our skin so to speak back when it

340
00:17:06,439 --> 00:17:04,439
was happening it's all fresh you're

341
00:17:08,689 --> 00:17:06,449
really feeling like you're back there in

342
00:17:10,370 --> 00:17:08,699
1967 that's why you said Patricia you

343
00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:10,380
know it reads like a novel well very

344
00:17:16,699 --> 00:17:14,250
intentionally and yet John Selby and I

345
00:17:21,799 --> 00:17:16,709
set out to tell exactly what happened to

346
00:17:25,270 --> 00:17:21,809
us which we felt from early on was an

347
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:25,280
extremely fascinating an unusual story

348
00:17:32,299 --> 00:17:28,770
the costs of the interrelationship

349
00:17:35,390 --> 00:17:32,309
between the two of us he had been in the

350
00:17:37,789 --> 00:17:35,400
program a year before me he had been

351
00:17:41,890 --> 00:17:37,799
subjected to deep hypnosis hypnotic

352
00:17:46,430 --> 00:17:41,900
indigenous including blanking memory

353
00:17:49,940 --> 00:17:46,440
wiping out the past distorting

354
00:17:52,940 --> 00:17:49,950
perception manipulating your sense of

355
00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:52,950
time slowing time down speeding it up

356
00:17:59,649 --> 00:17:56,610
changing your sense of size out-of-body

357
00:18:02,330 --> 00:17:59,659
experiences you know he became a bird

358
00:18:06,980 --> 00:18:02,340
under hypnotic instruction and was told

359
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:06,990
to fly away and was given it not a

360
00:18:14,510 --> 00:18:12,570
conditions in that state and he became

361
00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:14,520
convinced that when he was brought back

362
00:18:18,580 --> 00:18:16,530
they had done something to him you know

363
00:18:21,020 --> 00:18:18,590
when he was out of his body as a bird

364
00:18:23,390 --> 00:18:21,030
that he wasn't the complete person that

365
00:18:25,580 --> 00:18:23,400
he was before he didn't know what

366
00:18:29,149 --> 00:18:25,590
conditions he was operating under at

367
00:18:32,990 --> 00:18:29,159
that point which is terrible because the

368
00:18:36,770 --> 00:18:33,000
what are the things that I I felt so sad

369
00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:36,780
about is that this this all happened

370
00:18:42,409 --> 00:18:39,450
fairly gradually I mean the side effects

371
00:18:43,850 --> 00:18:42,419
of this the yes the manipulation is that

372
00:18:45,010 --> 00:18:43,860
they did it's not like they gave you a

373
00:18:46,870 --> 00:18:45,020
less D and you

374
00:18:49,330 --> 00:18:46,880
jumped out a window and killed yourself

375
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:49,340
obviously it wasn't that it was the slow

376
00:18:55,870 --> 00:18:52,970
descent well at first there was no LSD

377
00:18:58,360 --> 00:18:55,880
that I mean it began innocently and

378
00:19:04,960 --> 00:18:58,370
innocuous ly enough with training to get

379
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:04,970
into a deep trance when you enlisted you

380
00:19:09,490 --> 00:19:07,370
did have to sign a consent form and I

381
00:19:12,010 --> 00:19:09,500
was 20 so I needed to get consent from

382
00:19:15,580 --> 00:19:12,020
my parents who didn't want to give that

383
00:19:17,860 --> 00:19:15,590
consent but I I was so insistent I you

384
00:19:21,519 --> 00:19:17,870
know as a psychology major I felt that

385
00:19:26,350 --> 00:19:21,529
working with these this team would I

386
00:19:28,350 --> 00:19:26,360
would learn a lot and so they give you

387
00:19:32,230 --> 00:19:28,360
personality tests they give you a

388
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:32,240
hypnosis induction test to see whether

389
00:19:36,310 --> 00:19:34,250
you're susceptible to hypnosis not

390
00:19:40,870 --> 00:19:36,320
everyone is or people are not equally

391
00:19:42,820 --> 00:19:40,880
susceptible so they wanted subjects that

392
00:19:46,510 --> 00:19:42,830
they could train to go into very very

393
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:46,520
deep trances quickly and so there would

394
00:19:51,850 --> 00:19:48,890
be a period of time of I think it was a

395
00:19:53,350 --> 00:19:51,860
couple months where you trained you know

396
00:19:55,930 --> 00:19:53,360
you relaxed it's a little bit like

397
00:19:59,710 --> 00:19:55,940
meditation at first and the the

398
00:20:01,330 --> 00:19:59,720
hypnotist voice is leading you and you

399
00:20:03,820 --> 00:20:01,340
know taking you down into an altered

400
00:20:07,090 --> 00:20:03,830
state of awareness which is sort of like

401
00:20:09,430 --> 00:20:07,100
between waking and sleeping like that

402
00:20:11,649 --> 00:20:09,440
dream state you have just before

403
00:20:14,409 --> 00:20:11,659
awakening they call it hypnagogic

404
00:20:17,279 --> 00:20:14,419
imagery and you're not really conscious

405
00:20:22,029 --> 00:20:17,289
in a normal way during that time and

406
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:22,039
they will give you a word that they

407
00:20:25,510 --> 00:20:23,330
don't want you to remember they'll

408
00:20:27,789 --> 00:20:25,520
instruct you you won't remember it which

409
00:20:29,500 --> 00:20:27,799
will become a trigger word so that when

410
00:20:31,810 --> 00:20:29,510
you come back to the same place sit down

411
00:20:33,940 --> 00:20:31,820
in the chair and the hypnotist says that

412
00:20:36,220 --> 00:20:33,950
word you'll go right back to that same

413
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:36,230
state very quickly they won't have to

414
00:20:41,950 --> 00:20:40,250
spend 20 minutes inducing the trance but

415
00:20:46,870 --> 00:20:41,960
what they will do after they've

416
00:20:49,510 --> 00:20:46,880
triggered your state they will deepen

417
00:20:50,710 --> 00:20:49,520
the trance take you to a point where

418
00:20:52,450 --> 00:20:50,720
they'll put you under a specific

419
00:20:54,039 --> 00:20:52,460
hypnotic condition and that what they

420
00:20:56,170 --> 00:20:54,049
want to do is study you and your

421
00:21:00,880 --> 00:20:56,180
behavior for the next few hours

422
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:00,890
so they will they give you a perception

423
00:21:07,330 --> 00:21:02,450
altering if not a condition they wake

424
00:21:08,980 --> 00:21:07,340
you up you're woken up you though you'll

425
00:21:12,310 --> 00:21:08,990
walk around the Institute with them

426
00:21:15,310 --> 00:21:12,320
maybe outside on the grounds but you

427
00:21:17,350 --> 00:21:15,320
won't have a consciousness that your

428
00:21:18,910 --> 00:21:17,360
sense of reality has been altered maybe

429
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:18,920
they've taken away any member of your

430
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:22,250
past you know you won't even know who

431
00:21:25,630 --> 00:21:24,050
you are

432
00:21:28,390 --> 00:21:25,640
won't remember anything that's happened

433
00:21:32,770 --> 00:21:28,400
the day before or years before and that

434
00:21:37,570 --> 00:21:32,780
was one of John Selby's biggest concerns

435
00:21:40,030 --> 00:21:37,580
that that they wiped out his past very

436
00:21:42,550 --> 00:21:40,040
deliberately and put him through these

437
00:21:47,460 --> 00:21:42,560
manipulative conditions for an entire

438
00:21:52,140 --> 00:21:47,470
year now as far as the LSD was concerned

439
00:21:55,270 --> 00:21:52,150
they would never tell you that they were

440
00:22:00,310 --> 00:21:55,280
supplementing the hypnosis experiment

441
00:22:02,860 --> 00:22:00,320
with a psychedelic drug they might you

442
00:22:04,780 --> 00:22:02,870
know they would sometimes give a placebo

443
00:22:06,130 --> 00:22:04,790
sometimes they'd want you to think that

444
00:22:08,590 --> 00:22:06,140
you were under the influence of some

445
00:22:12,610 --> 00:22:08,600
exotic drug but you wouldn't be it would

446
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:12,620
just be the hypnosis or other times they

447
00:22:16,660 --> 00:22:14,810
would give you LSD small very small

448
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:16,670
doses is what I'm talking about like

449
00:22:22,420 --> 00:22:20,090
micro doses and you would not know that

450
00:22:29,230 --> 00:22:22,430
you'd been given the drug now when I say

451
00:22:32,730 --> 00:22:29,240
microdose lsd-25 is so powerful and it

452
00:22:37,870 --> 00:22:32,740
has its effect in such small amounts

453
00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:37,880
that 100 micrograms is sufficient to put

454
00:22:44,230 --> 00:22:40,130
somebody off onto a six or eight hour

455
00:22:47,170 --> 00:22:44,240
what we call a trip that's a very very

456
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:47,180
very small amount that's right and and

457
00:22:55,660 --> 00:22:53,330
so so there we go here was John Selby

458
00:22:57,910 --> 00:22:55,670
who had been there a year and they

459
00:23:01,530 --> 00:22:57,920
really wanted to keep their claws on him

460
00:23:04,630 --> 00:23:01,540
he was a senior he was graduating as a

461
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:04,640
psychology major they were offering him

462
00:23:08,899 --> 00:23:06,530
a full-time position at the Institute

463
00:23:10,999 --> 00:23:08,909
the following year as a hypnotist

464
00:23:13,009 --> 00:23:11,009
they want to be able to continue

465
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:13,019
studying him and there was something

466
00:23:19,549 --> 00:23:16,369
about deferring his military service to

467
00:23:22,969 --> 00:23:19,559
yes they offered it that that was a that

468
00:23:25,879 --> 00:23:22,979
was the the big carrot held held out it

469
00:23:28,820 --> 00:23:25,889
was during the Vietnam War everyone was

470
00:23:32,779 --> 00:23:28,830
being drafted after college the only way

471
00:23:35,749 --> 00:23:32,789
to not be drafted at that time well if

472
00:23:38,749 --> 00:23:35,759
you are medically unfit okay you've got

473
00:23:41,180 --> 00:23:38,759
a four F deferment or if you went to

474
00:23:42,979 --> 00:23:41,190
medical school they let you go to

475
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:42,989
medical school and then they would take

476
00:23:50,330 --> 00:23:46,970
you later after you were a doctor and

477
00:23:52,700 --> 00:23:50,340
also they had a deferment for seminary

478
00:23:54,799 --> 00:23:52,710
students which is really unusual

479
00:23:56,629 --> 00:23:54,809
I mean why somebody wants to become a

480
00:23:58,759 --> 00:23:56,639
chaplain or you know they go study

481
00:24:00,619 --> 00:23:58,769
religion to become a minister or

482
00:24:02,239 --> 00:24:00,629
something why deferment from the

483
00:24:04,789 --> 00:24:02,249
military but they did those were the

484
00:24:07,339 --> 00:24:04,799
only three ways so this was a big deal

485
00:24:11,239 --> 00:24:07,349
if he could get out of that being

486
00:24:13,039 --> 00:24:11,249
drafted yeah unless you came from a

487
00:24:16,539 --> 00:24:13,049
military family and were convinced that

488
00:24:19,909 --> 00:24:16,549
you needed to enlist and you wanted to

489
00:24:21,349 --> 00:24:19,919
go fight in Vietnam I think that was the

490
00:24:25,639 --> 00:24:21,359
minority of people that had that

491
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:25,649
attitude so you know most of us just

492
00:24:30,859 --> 00:24:27,690
wanted to have our lives go on with our

493
00:24:33,289 --> 00:24:30,869
lives and not have it interrupted by

494
00:24:35,659 --> 00:24:33,299
military service so for John Selby he

495
00:24:37,399 --> 00:24:35,669
was said the work we're doing is in the

496
00:24:42,950 --> 00:24:37,409
national it's considered in the national

497
00:24:44,539 --> 00:24:42,960
interest and he was told that some of

498
00:24:46,430 --> 00:24:44,549
the support came from the National

499
00:24:51,469 --> 00:24:46,440
Institutes of Health in National

500
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:51,479
Institutes of mental health which which

501
00:24:58,249 --> 00:24:54,090
was true that some of the money was

502
00:25:00,169 --> 00:24:58,259
funneled into you know this was a

503
00:25:04,310 --> 00:25:00,179
top-secret program it was like a black

504
00:25:08,629 --> 00:25:04,320
program so some of it did come from

505
00:25:11,899 --> 00:25:08,639
there and some of it came from a dummy

506
00:25:14,869 --> 00:25:11,909
corporation called the Society for the

507
00:25:17,889 --> 00:25:14,879
study of human ecology now I don't even

508
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:19,640
organization

509
00:25:24,050 --> 00:25:22,170
yeah well what did you do today I got a

510
00:25:27,650 --> 00:25:24,060
job with the Society for the study of

511
00:25:30,140 --> 00:25:27,660
human ecology what that job where was it

512
00:25:33,470 --> 00:25:30,150
you were a master yeah that you were a

513
00:25:36,310 --> 00:25:33,480
paymaster for the CIA because that's

514
00:25:40,790 --> 00:25:36,320
where the checks came that paid the

515
00:25:43,370 --> 00:25:40,800
psychologist and the psychiatrist so yes

516
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:43,380
they enticed John Selby with the draft

517
00:25:52,190 --> 00:25:48,810
deferment concept and so he he really

518
00:25:53,810 --> 00:25:52,200
and this is I think and I think you'll

519
00:25:56,210 --> 00:25:53,820
both agree with this this is part of the

520
00:25:59,330 --> 00:25:56,220
real drama of the book that you have

521
00:26:02,210 --> 00:25:59,340
this young man from the cattle ranch at

522
00:26:07,220 --> 00:26:02,220
Princeton who got into the SIP gnosis

523
00:26:09,620 --> 00:26:07,230
stuff and LSD and really wanted at a

524
00:26:14,210 --> 00:26:09,630
certain point to get out of it he felt

525
00:26:16,070 --> 00:26:14,220
that he was being haunted damaged that

526
00:26:19,010 --> 00:26:16,080
the hypnotic conditions were not being

527
00:26:20,270 --> 00:26:19,020
erased he was having flashbacks of

528
00:26:23,030 --> 00:26:20,280
things that had happened under hypnosis

529
00:26:27,020 --> 00:26:23,040
and sometimes at critical times for

530
00:26:30,860 --> 00:26:27,030
example he was a champion he became a

531
00:26:36,110 --> 00:26:30,870
champion fencer on the Princeton fencing

532
00:26:37,730 --> 00:26:36,120
team but if you have this haunting you I

533
00:26:39,830 --> 00:26:37,740
mean John Selby always called it the

534
00:26:41,570 --> 00:26:39,840
boogeyman you know the boogeyman it

535
00:26:44,930 --> 00:26:41,580
softer than the boogeyman came from I

536
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:44,940
yeah from the National from the New

537
00:26:53,750 --> 00:26:50,010
Jersey neuropsychiatric Institute so his

538
00:26:56,570 --> 00:26:53,760
struggle to break free of it is one of

539
00:26:59,210 --> 00:26:56,580
the major themes of the book and how he

540
00:27:01,070 --> 00:26:59,220
finally did it and how he finally got up

541
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:01,080
the courage to betray the people he was

542
00:27:08,780 --> 00:27:03,570
working for you know break into their

543
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:08,790
files you know find his file and I don't

544
00:27:12,530 --> 00:27:10,170
want to give away the whole plot you

545
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:12,540
know but yeah exactly he needed to break

546
00:27:21,610 --> 00:27:18,570
away meanwhile you you have me naive 20

547
00:27:24,590 --> 00:27:21,620
years old gung-ho for this right I

548
00:27:29,510 --> 00:27:24,600
hadn't experienced the dark side early

549
00:27:31,460 --> 00:27:29,520
on I I enjoyed learning to go under

550
00:27:35,030 --> 00:27:31,470
hypnosis

551
00:27:36,860 --> 00:27:35,040
so as John Selby my co-author began to

552
00:27:41,360 --> 00:27:36,870
rebel against it I couldn't understand

553
00:27:45,170 --> 00:27:41,370
why and then we had this third another

554
00:27:46,970 --> 00:27:45,180
mutual friend puck in the book terrific

555
00:27:48,410 --> 00:27:46,980
carrot would you agree puck was really

556
00:27:50,810 --> 00:27:48,420
interesting character he's a great

557
00:27:52,510 --> 00:27:50,820
character and I was gonna ask you more

558
00:27:55,700 --> 00:27:52,520
about him because he's so interesting

559
00:27:57,830 --> 00:27:55,710
yeah I mean I think he really lives it's

560
00:28:00,650 --> 00:27:57,840
he helps make it a piece of literature

561
00:28:03,170 --> 00:28:00,660
you know cuz this character apocalypse

562
00:28:05,510 --> 00:28:03,180
who's half Native American half Greek

563
00:28:10,070 --> 00:28:05,520
who was a subject at the institute

564
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:10,080
before John Selby was and he went just

565
00:28:17,660 --> 00:28:13,650
out of his mind and he always called it

566
00:28:21,290 --> 00:28:17,670
the loony bin we came to call it the

567
00:28:24,860 --> 00:28:21,300
Cuckoo's Nest I mean eventually Warren

568
00:28:26,270 --> 00:28:24,870
you guys in his own way sure he did you

569
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:26,280
know that there was that book by Ken

570
00:28:32,390 --> 00:28:29,450
Kesey called One Flew Over the Cuckoo's

571
00:28:34,310 --> 00:28:32,400
amazing classic yes you know he was in

572
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:34,320
his early 20s when he wrote that and he

573
00:28:38,330 --> 00:28:36,570
was good Ken Kesey was considered one of

574
00:28:39,290 --> 00:28:38,340
the major up-and-coming writers of

575
00:28:41,330 --> 00:28:39,300
America at that time

576
00:28:45,650 --> 00:28:41,340
then he wrote sometimes a great notion

577
00:28:48,170 --> 00:28:45,660
and boy was he persecuted for what for

578
00:28:50,300 --> 00:28:48,180
possession of marijuana right I mean he

579
00:28:53,260 --> 00:28:50,310
was arrested twice for possession of a

580
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:53,270
joint he's facing five years in prison

581
00:29:00,050 --> 00:28:57,330
but Ken Kesey and of that time he was

582
00:29:04,340 --> 00:29:00,060
also a major proselytizer of LSD well

583
00:29:07,130 --> 00:29:04,350
LSD was legal until 1966 they didn't

584
00:29:12,140 --> 00:29:07,140
pass a law against it until then Ken

585
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:12,150
Kesey got a 1939 school bus you probably

586
00:29:17,900 --> 00:29:13,650
know about this he painted it all in

587
00:29:20,450 --> 00:29:17,910
psychedelic colors and he with a band of

588
00:29:21,020 --> 00:29:20,460
followers hippies went around the

589
00:29:23,750 --> 00:29:21,030
country

590
00:29:25,820 --> 00:29:23,760
stopping in different cities enticing

591
00:29:27,890 --> 00:29:25,830
people to take the acid test hey would

592
00:29:30,530 --> 00:29:27,900
you like to try LSD we got a deal

593
00:29:32,270 --> 00:29:30,540
kool-aid and a hundred people at a time

594
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:32,280
would take acid thanks to Ken Kesey so

595
00:29:37,070 --> 00:29:34,290
of course they persecuted him of course

596
00:29:38,780 --> 00:29:37,080
you know an adjoint of marijuana was

597
00:29:42,620 --> 00:29:38,790
what they could what they could bust him

598
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:42,630
on at that time they couldn't bust we're

599
00:29:46,340 --> 00:29:44,010
going to take

600
00:29:48,050 --> 00:29:46,350
you hear fall because we're going to

601
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:48,060
have to take a very short commercial

602
00:29:52,940 --> 00:29:50,610
break but this is a fascinating

603
00:29:54,740 --> 00:29:52,950
discussion we've got questions lining up

604
00:29:56,030 --> 00:29:54,750
in the chat room from Ralph and Thomas

605
00:29:58,700 --> 00:29:56,040
and Xena we're going to ask those

606
00:30:00,800 --> 00:29:58,710
questions on their behalf if anybody has

607
00:30:04,700 --> 00:30:00,810
a question to ask you can go to IR in

608
00:30:06,770 --> 00:30:04,710
chat dot-com ir in chat comm will ask

609
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:06,780
your question for you with this

610
00:30:10,580 --> 00:30:08,130
fascinating discussion that we're having

611
00:30:14,060 --> 00:30:10,590
tonight with paul davids blowing

612
00:30:16,180 --> 00:30:14,070
America's mind we'll be back in a very

613
00:30:18,770 --> 00:30:16,190
few few minutes you're listening to

614
00:30:21,020 --> 00:30:18,780
Supernatural girls radio stay tuned

615
00:30:21,890 --> 00:30:21,030
welcome back everyone to supernatural

616
00:30:23,990 --> 00:30:21,900
Girls radio

617
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:24,000
I'm your host Patricia Baker I'm here

618
00:30:30,470 --> 00:30:28,170
with my co-host PK and our guests very

619
00:30:32,750 --> 00:30:30,480
exciting guest tonight Paul Jaffe

620
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:32,760
David's and he is the author of this

621
00:30:40,670 --> 00:30:38,250
book blowin America's minds his this is

622
00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:40,680
an amazing story it's a true story of

623
00:30:45,980 --> 00:30:44,310
Princeton CIA mind control LSD and Zen

624
00:30:50,690 --> 00:30:45,990
and he is given us the inside scoop

625
00:30:52,910 --> 00:30:50,700
tonight on all of this so I'm gonna ask

626
00:30:54,410 --> 00:30:52,920
a couple questions of you Paul from our

627
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:54,420
chat room and this is from Zena who's

628
00:31:01,810 --> 00:30:57,330
asking did any of these kids families

629
00:31:05,450 --> 00:31:01,820
not ask the school what was going on

630
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:05,460
well that's that's a good one

631
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:09,450
you know I can't speak of many instances

632
00:31:16,130 --> 00:31:12,930
but in the book Jon Selby certainly

633
00:31:21,260 --> 00:31:16,140
deals with his problems with his own

634
00:31:23,690 --> 00:31:21,270
family I mean they they were enraged by

635
00:31:25,730 --> 00:31:23,700
his involvement in this and they

636
00:31:27,470 --> 00:31:25,740
actually cut him off I mean it got to

637
00:31:33,500 --> 00:31:27,480
the point where he couldn't go home for

638
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:33,510
Christmas but I don't know that the

639
00:31:39,830 --> 00:31:36,290
parents you know my parents never

640
00:31:43,270 --> 00:31:39,840
interfered they never you know they

641
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:43,280
never tried to stop it they would not

642
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:45,330
the people who would have picked up a

643
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:46,650
phone and said you know what are you

644
00:31:55,490 --> 00:31:51,090
doing to my son and you know the changes

645
00:32:00,950 --> 00:31:58,940
so that's that's the best I can do with

646
00:32:03,470 --> 00:32:00,960
that question I think yeah and I think

647
00:32:06,379 --> 00:32:03,480
too back then people had a much larger

648
00:32:12,139 --> 00:32:06,389
sense of trust with institutions

649
00:32:14,450 --> 00:32:12,149
government bla bla bla so yeah I mean

650
00:32:16,220 --> 00:32:14,460
your parents generation not you but your

651
00:32:18,529 --> 00:32:16,230
parents generation they wouldn't have

652
00:32:21,649 --> 00:32:18,539
questioned you know Princeton what's

653
00:32:24,350 --> 00:32:21,659
Princeton doing in this or the New

654
00:32:26,299 --> 00:32:24,360
Jersey neuropsychiatric Institute is you

655
00:32:28,669 --> 00:32:26,309
know it's considered to be a it doesn't

656
00:32:32,060 --> 00:32:28,679
exist anymore but it was considered to

657
00:32:33,289 --> 00:32:32,070
be a reputable institution it was a also

658
00:32:35,299 --> 00:32:33,299
a mental hospital

659
00:32:38,749 --> 00:32:35,309
there were full-time schizophrenic

660
00:32:42,139 --> 00:32:38,759
patients there in other buildings you

661
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:42,149
know we had this three-story brick

662
00:32:46,669 --> 00:32:44,490
edifice that was the bureau of research

663
00:32:49,180 --> 00:32:46,679
that we went to but when we drove down

664
00:32:51,889 --> 00:32:49,190
the long road from the entrance gate

665
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:51,899
along a lake to get there

666
00:32:58,119 --> 00:32:54,570
we passed buildings that had you know

667
00:33:02,690 --> 00:32:58,129
patients who were there permanently

668
00:33:06,590 --> 00:33:02,700
eventually they after MKULTRA was

669
00:33:08,419 --> 00:33:06,600
exposed and the names of these doctors

670
00:33:13,159 --> 00:33:08,429
and their connection to the program

671
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:13,169
became public they closed down the

672
00:33:19,129 --> 00:33:17,370
Bureau of research interesting fate of

673
00:33:21,740 --> 00:33:19,139
what happened to the doctors involved at

674
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:21,750
that point who sort of scattered to the

675
00:33:28,279 --> 00:33:24,330
winds in different directions

676
00:33:30,980 --> 00:33:28,289
and they changed the name of the new

677
00:33:34,070 --> 00:33:30,990
jersey neuropsychiatric Institute it

678
00:33:37,730 --> 00:33:34,080
became a new institution called the New

679
00:33:39,289 --> 00:33:37,740
Jersey Developmental Center now does

680
00:33:45,230 --> 00:33:39,299
that sound like a psychiatric hospital

681
00:33:47,330 --> 00:33:45,240
to you no no but it still was and it

682
00:33:49,369 --> 00:33:47,340
enabled them to retire all the files

683
00:33:51,590 --> 00:33:49,379
from before because now it's a different

684
00:34:00,710 --> 00:33:51,600
institution they're clean

685
00:34:03,049 --> 00:34:00,720
okay one more person I'm gonna ask the

686
00:34:05,930 --> 00:34:03,059
floor we have we're gonna go into why

687
00:34:07,909 --> 00:34:05,940
you did this now why you and John

688
00:34:08,630 --> 00:34:07,919
decided to release this book now but

689
00:34:10,550 --> 00:34:08,640
first

690
00:34:12,890 --> 00:34:10,560
Thomas has a good question he's saying

691
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:12,900
where you guys are ready experimenting

692
00:34:20,210 --> 00:34:19,290
with drugs prior to this no neither of

693
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:20,220
us

694
00:34:28,370 --> 00:34:22,890
John Selby had his first experience

695
00:34:32,450 --> 00:34:28,380
being turned on with LSD by dr. Humphrey

696
00:34:34,730 --> 00:34:32,460
Osmond and the he doesn't describe that

697
00:34:36,650 --> 00:34:34,740
experience in the book but if you go to

698
00:34:40,250 --> 00:34:36,660
our website for the book which is

699
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:40,260
blowing America's mind calm there's

700
00:34:44,690 --> 00:34:42,570
blogs there that John Selby and I have

701
00:34:46,430 --> 00:34:44,700
written and one of them John Selby

702
00:34:49,700 --> 00:34:46,440
describes that whole first experience

703
00:34:53,240 --> 00:34:49,710
with Aldous Huxley now let me just say

704
00:34:54,860 --> 00:34:53,250
and as for myself absolutely not no no

705
00:34:57,950 --> 00:34:54,870
experience when you read the book you'll

706
00:34:59,510 --> 00:34:57,960
see my first experiences when pok you

707
00:35:01,610 --> 00:34:59,520
know turns me on with grass for the

708
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:01,620
first time and it's I think that's a

709
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:04,370
pretty funny funny chapter really but

710
00:35:10,550 --> 00:35:07,770
but you know we felt we were in such

711
00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:10,560
good hands with dr. Osmond partially

712
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:14,730
because we know we learned that he was a

713
00:35:22,910 --> 00:35:19,130
friend of the great writer Aldous Huxley

714
00:35:26,050 --> 00:35:22,920
who wrote brave new world and he turned

715
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:26,060
on Aldous Huxley with mescaline and

716
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:28,530
Aldous Huxley wrote about that

717
00:35:34,730 --> 00:35:31,530
experience and became a book called the

718
00:35:39,290 --> 00:35:34,740
doors of perception and that became a

719
00:35:41,300 --> 00:35:39,300
very famous important book maybe the

720
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:41,310
best description of a psychedelic

721
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:44,930
experience that we have as literature

722
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:48,570
and you know Jim Morrison and the doors

723
00:35:53,060 --> 00:35:50,850
well they took their name from that book

724
00:35:55,340 --> 00:35:53,070
the doors of perception so at that

725
00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:55,350
period of history who wouldn't have

726
00:36:02,780 --> 00:35:57,690
wanted to experience this remarkable

727
00:36:04,550 --> 00:36:02,790
drug in the hands of free osmond yeah

728
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:04,560
well that was part of the motivation of

729
00:36:08,330 --> 00:36:06,450
getting involved in the Institute

730
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:08,340
because we were curious about these

731
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:11,130
things very little was known about it

732
00:36:15,110 --> 00:36:13,410
then I mean the Beatles were beginning

733
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:15,120
to promote it Lucy in the Sky with

734
00:36:20,810 --> 00:36:17,970
Diamonds and you know they had been to

735
00:36:22,130 --> 00:36:20,820
the Orient and they talked about how the

736
00:36:26,569 --> 00:36:22,140
psychedelic experience

737
00:36:30,890 --> 00:36:26,579
was like sort of chemical route to

738
00:36:34,190 --> 00:36:30,900
Nirvana so a lot of people were being

739
00:36:35,750 --> 00:36:34,200
enticed by this kind of talk and you

740
00:36:37,279 --> 00:36:35,760
know like with Ken Kesey that I was

741
00:36:41,299 --> 00:36:37,289
talking about before he turned on a lot

742
00:36:43,339 --> 00:36:41,309
of people just on the street but for for

743
00:36:45,859 --> 00:36:43,349
us we were trying to do it in a sensible

744
00:36:50,809 --> 00:36:45,869
way all right and that was going to the

745
00:36:53,539 --> 00:36:50,819
inside funded by the CIA and they had

746
00:36:58,789 --> 00:36:53,549
some nefarious purposes in mind in their

747
00:37:02,269 --> 00:36:58,799
in their research very nefarious and and

748
00:37:04,220 --> 00:37:02,279
again let's let's go to that that

749
00:37:05,450 --> 00:37:04,230
question we were discussing off the air

750
00:37:08,230 --> 00:37:05,460
because as you mentioned this is very

751
00:37:11,299 --> 00:37:08,240
important this happened a long time ago

752
00:37:14,750 --> 00:37:11,309
why did you and John decide to release

753
00:37:18,710 --> 00:37:14,760
this material now all right we began

754
00:37:21,730 --> 00:37:18,720
writing the book a couple years after

755
00:37:27,289 --> 00:37:21,740
this happened so we were still in our

756
00:37:30,079 --> 00:37:27,299
early to mid 20s mid 20s let's say and

757
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:30,089
it was still fresh on our minds you know

758
00:37:33,829 --> 00:37:31,650
everything that we could actually

759
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:33,839
remember I mean John and I had to help

760
00:37:40,730 --> 00:37:35,690
each other break through some of the

761
00:37:42,019 --> 00:37:40,740
hypnotic blocking to bring it all to the

762
00:37:44,380 --> 00:37:42,029
surface for both of us

763
00:37:47,690 --> 00:37:44,390
but we began writing this in the early

764
00:37:50,450 --> 00:37:47,700
1970s again before anything was known

765
00:37:53,450 --> 00:37:50,460
about MKULTRA but we did succeed in

766
00:37:55,370 --> 00:37:53,460
getting down our experiences and the

767
00:37:57,319 --> 00:37:55,380
people that we know and the interactions

768
00:38:00,049 --> 00:37:57,329
and the dialogue while it was still

769
00:38:02,299 --> 00:38:00,059
relatively fresh so we could be accurate

770
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:02,309
about what would happen but we could not

771
00:38:06,589 --> 00:38:04,890
get the full picture we didn't have the

772
00:38:09,349 --> 00:38:06,599
full picture at that point we weren't

773
00:38:12,859 --> 00:38:09,359
mature enough then and we had no idea

774
00:38:14,509 --> 00:38:12,869
about the military involvement in it so

775
00:38:18,559 --> 00:38:14,519
there came a point where we put the book

776
00:38:21,319 --> 00:38:18,569
down and we it went into a drawer to

777
00:38:23,539 --> 00:38:21,329
gather dust as an unfinished manuscript

778
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:23,549
I do I don't want to mention at this

779
00:38:31,700 --> 00:38:29,130
point too that when John Selby left the

780
00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:31,710
Institute under very unfriendly terms

781
00:38:37,930 --> 00:38:33,730
which is in here

782
00:38:40,750 --> 00:38:37,940
he and his girlfriend just picked up and

783
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:40,760
left Princeton he was being tailed by

784
00:38:44,890 --> 00:38:42,650
some spooks at that point - they were

785
00:38:47,110 --> 00:38:44,900
making themselves obvious what they

786
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:47,120
objected to was that John Selby had

787
00:38:54,010 --> 00:38:50,290
released information to the press about

788
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:54,020
this that he wasn't supposed to and

789
00:38:58,990 --> 00:38:55,850
about the use of psychedelic drugs at

790
00:39:00,790 --> 00:38:59,000
Princeton and the President of Princeton

791
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:00,800
University became quite annoyed about

792
00:39:07,060 --> 00:39:05,450
that that was Robert don't we have quite

793
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:07,070
a great chapter isn't that really

794
00:39:11,620 --> 00:39:09,890
special it really is a great chapter

795
00:39:14,500 --> 00:39:11,630
when you talk about this because and

796
00:39:17,140 --> 00:39:14,510
here's my question about John and why he

797
00:39:20,110 --> 00:39:17,150
divulged this information because I mean

798
00:39:22,300 --> 00:39:20,120
it seems like he must have known on some

799
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:22,310
level that what he was talking about was

800
00:39:26,890 --> 00:39:24,530
going to create a very negative response

801
00:39:29,740 --> 00:39:26,900
from the people he was involved with did

802
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:29,750
he not know that or he did the LSD break

803
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:31,970
down his barriers oh he didn't yeah yes

804
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:33,410
he didn't care I mean it was like what

805
00:39:38,470 --> 00:39:35,810
Timothy Leary did he was a Harvard

806
00:39:42,580 --> 00:39:38,480
professor by the way one of my film

807
00:39:44,830 --> 00:39:42,590
projects I've made 10 and one of them is

808
00:39:48,370 --> 00:39:44,840
the film Timothy Leary's dead the

809
00:39:51,430 --> 00:39:48,380
biography of LSD guru from Harvard the

810
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:51,440
professor Timothy Leary maybe the

811
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:54,050
younger generation doesn't as familiar

812
00:39:58,090 --> 00:39:56,210
with him as well we were but he was like

813
00:40:02,500 --> 00:39:58,100
a national leader of the hippies in

814
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:02,510
those days so he didn't care either what

815
00:40:07,300 --> 00:40:05,810
he said you know people you know they

816
00:40:10,060 --> 00:40:07,310
did that well there's a chapter in the

817
00:40:13,300 --> 00:40:10,070
book of John so be with the President of

818
00:40:17,170 --> 00:40:13,310
Princeton talking about LSD and the

819
00:40:20,730 --> 00:40:17,180
information that John has divulged to

820
00:40:24,730 --> 00:40:20,740
the media about drug use on campus and

821
00:40:26,590 --> 00:40:24,740
Robert going questioning him really

822
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:26,600
trying to understand you know why this

823
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:30,170
was happening and get at the Kenneth's

824
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:32,930
the answer for himself as to why would

825
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:34,610
this young man

826
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:36,890
who was given the privilege of coming to

827
00:40:43,060 --> 00:40:40,970
Princeton from a dubious background as

828
00:40:46,570 --> 00:40:43,070
far as becoming an Ivy League student

829
00:40:51,510 --> 00:40:46,580
you know from the cattle ranch why would

830
00:40:55,830 --> 00:40:51,520
he sort of turn against tradition and

831
00:40:59,370 --> 00:40:55,840
attempt to immerse himself in these

832
00:41:02,410 --> 00:40:59,380
drugs that changed his sense of reality

833
00:41:05,230 --> 00:41:02,420
and these experiments that changes sense

834
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:05,240
of reality yeah and the president of the

835
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:07,130
university kept saying well it sounds

836
00:41:12,370 --> 00:41:09,530
like you want to escape reality that

837
00:41:14,710 --> 00:41:12,380
yeah you know that here I I loved the

838
00:41:17,290 --> 00:41:14,720
reality we have here kind of intimating

839
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:17,300
what's wrong with you John yeah and John

840
00:41:22,390 --> 00:41:20,570
said back to him you you you don't know

841
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:22,400
what reality is you won't know what

842
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:25,970
reality is until this chemical lsd-25

843
00:41:31,870 --> 00:41:28,490
acts upon the diencephalon in your brain

844
00:41:34,300 --> 00:41:31,880
which is the filter the diencephalon is

845
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:34,310
what limits the amount of stimulus and

846
00:41:41,170 --> 00:41:36,650
information that comes into our brain so

847
00:41:45,220 --> 00:41:41,180
we can handle the barrage of wavelengths

848
00:41:47,290 --> 00:41:45,230
of everything that's out there if you

849
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:47,300
don't have that filter you can't

850
00:41:51,940 --> 00:41:49,610
function you're overwhelmed well LSD

851
00:41:54,460 --> 00:41:51,950
takes down the filter and you see the

852
00:42:00,550 --> 00:41:54,470
world in a new way you see much more

853
00:42:04,720 --> 00:42:00,560
detail you see things in in in minut

854
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:04,730
detail and you have a flood of not just

855
00:42:11,110 --> 00:42:08,690
sensations but a flood of ideation of

856
00:42:15,700 --> 00:42:11,120
thoughts that courses through your brain

857
00:42:17,970 --> 00:42:15,710
at an incredibly rapid speed so it slows

858
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:17,980
time down I mean normally you might feel

859
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:21,050
you might the course of five minutes you

860
00:42:24,820 --> 00:42:22,490
might you might be thinking about maybe

861
00:42:28,930 --> 00:42:24,830
five different things you know you spend

862
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:28,940
a minute worrying about meeting you have

863
00:42:33,190 --> 00:42:30,650
to attend a minute worrying about your

864
00:42:35,620 --> 00:42:33,200
finances you know a minute right

865
00:42:38,350 --> 00:42:35,630
thinking about a person who had an

866
00:42:40,660 --> 00:42:38,360
accident but under the influence of the

867
00:42:42,970 --> 00:42:40,670
psychedelic drugs you know imagine

868
00:42:44,230 --> 00:42:42,980
having a hundred thoughts in the same

869
00:42:47,830 --> 00:42:44,240
amount of time that normally you would

870
00:42:49,690 --> 00:42:47,840
have one so it's even download yeah

871
00:42:53,230 --> 00:42:49,700
yeah it makes it seem like time stands

872
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:53,240
still so we have this chapter in the

873
00:42:56,830 --> 00:42:55,370
book of John Selby explaining all this

874
00:42:58,320 --> 00:42:56,840
to the president of the University I

875
00:43:03,370 --> 00:42:58,330
mean this really happened

876
00:43:10,930 --> 00:43:03,380
oh you years ago yes why did you wait so

877
00:43:12,460 --> 00:43:10,940
long to release the book everybody well

878
00:43:17,490 --> 00:43:12,470
dad they're out there we used all the

879
00:43:20,110 --> 00:43:17,500
real names so they're all dead

880
00:43:23,260 --> 00:43:20,120
and also we felt for many years we

881
00:43:24,370 --> 00:43:23,270
didn't dare you know we just didn't dare

882
00:43:26,170 --> 00:43:24,380
we didn't know what the reaction would

883
00:43:29,500 --> 00:43:26,180
be of Princeton to our release of this

884
00:43:31,180 --> 00:43:29,510
book or the CIA you know this is ancient

885
00:43:32,890 --> 00:43:31,190
history for the CIA they've got more

886
00:43:34,510 --> 00:43:32,900
important problems and what's going on

887
00:43:38,590 --> 00:43:34,520
you know today this happened a long time

888
00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:38,600
ago but maybe maybe some of this stuff

889
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:40,250
is still going on we would have no way

890
00:43:44,890 --> 00:43:42,170
to know it's always been the top secret

891
00:43:46,180 --> 00:43:44,900
right we don't we don't know we don't

892
00:43:50,020 --> 00:43:46,190
know what kind of experiments they might

893
00:43:55,090 --> 00:43:50,030
be doing today we won't hear of it but

894
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:55,100
you know it is very interesting just

895
00:43:59,230 --> 00:43:56,450
want to say regarding the President of

896
00:44:02,110 --> 00:43:59,240
Princeton it's really interesting to me

897
00:44:04,630 --> 00:44:02,120
that when he finished his tenure as

898
00:44:08,230 --> 00:44:04,640
president of Princeton President Richard

899
00:44:11,380 --> 00:44:08,240
Nixon appointed him as the United States

900
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:11,390
ambassador to India a nuclear-armed

901
00:44:16,810 --> 00:44:14,690
country so wouldn't you think this would

902
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:16,820
indicate that President Killeen had some

903
00:44:25,720 --> 00:44:23,280
okay but you know how they

904
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:25,730
compartmentalize things you know in all

905
00:44:28,750 --> 00:44:27,530
of these agencies so sometimes the left

906
00:44:31,270 --> 00:44:28,760
hand doesn't know what the right hand is

907
00:44:34,570 --> 00:44:31,280
doing and that's a way they keep things

908
00:44:36,970 --> 00:44:34,580
very secret so but my god I mean we got

909
00:44:39,250 --> 00:44:36,980
to thank you for you and John for having

910
00:44:41,740 --> 00:44:39,260
the guts to bring us forward a minute

911
00:44:44,950 --> 00:44:41,750
you made yourselves very vulnerable in a

912
00:44:47,050 --> 00:44:44,960
lot of ways oh yeah it was a risk it was

913
00:44:50,050 --> 00:44:47,060
a risk you know the the best movie I

914
00:44:51,910 --> 00:44:50,060
ever saw in in my opinion about the

915
00:44:53,020 --> 00:44:51,920
craziness of the CIA and the left hand

916
00:44:55,870 --> 00:44:53,030
not knowing what the right hand is doing

917
00:44:59,080 --> 00:44:55,880
was made by the Coen brothers and it's

918
00:45:01,509 --> 00:44:59,090
called Burn After Reading you ever seen

919
00:45:05,409 --> 00:45:01,519
that movie no no

920
00:45:07,149 --> 00:45:05,419
see it burn after eating yeah first read

921
00:45:11,799 --> 00:45:07,159
blowing America's mind everybody in

922
00:45:14,109 --> 00:45:11,809
that's go see right we're gonna be so

923
00:45:15,609 --> 00:45:14,119
informed as to at least again what

924
00:45:17,889 --> 00:45:15,619
you've brought forward because it's your

925
00:45:19,929 --> 00:45:17,899
experience you guys uncovered these

926
00:45:22,359 --> 00:45:19,939
hidden files you knew what was going on

927
00:45:24,039 --> 00:45:22,369
by the end of all this you had a clue

928
00:45:27,339 --> 00:45:24,049
that you didn't have when you first

929
00:45:29,439 --> 00:45:27,349
started well by the end of our tenure at

930
00:45:31,599 --> 00:45:29,449
the Institute we had a clue

931
00:45:36,279 --> 00:45:31,609
certainly and spooks were beginning to

932
00:45:39,219 --> 00:45:36,289
gather round our our lives when we left

933
00:45:41,049 --> 00:45:39,229
this and I graduated Princeton and John

934
00:45:43,179 --> 00:45:41,059
went from Princeton to the West Coast

935
00:45:45,999 --> 00:45:43,189
and he actually entered a seminary you

936
00:45:47,319 --> 00:45:46,009
know he wanted the draft deferment I

937
00:45:51,279 --> 00:45:47,329
said there are only two ways you can get

938
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:51,289
it she'll be studying to be a minister

939
00:45:57,489 --> 00:45:55,130
you know one of the many books he's

940
00:46:04,149 --> 00:45:57,499
written is called Jesus for the rest of

941
00:46:12,219 --> 00:46:04,159
us what if you're not a devout believer

942
00:46:14,709 --> 00:46:12,229
right the message that I love it

943
00:46:16,659 --> 00:46:14,719
how creative but we went off in two

944
00:46:18,879 --> 00:46:16,669
different directions but when he left

945
00:46:21,189 --> 00:46:18,889
the Institute and I was still part of it

946
00:46:25,599 --> 00:46:21,199
I was still supporting the research

947
00:46:29,379 --> 00:46:25,609
still happy to be connected with dr.

948
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:29,389
Osmond and dr. Bernard Aronson Bernie

949
00:46:33,989 --> 00:46:31,130
we call them Bernie Aronson was the head

950
00:46:38,199 --> 00:46:33,999
hypnotist psychologist mm-hmm a

951
00:46:40,779 --> 00:46:38,209
Princeton psychologist oh wow is he a

952
00:46:44,099 --> 00:46:40,789
complex personality and I think we paint

953
00:46:47,349 --> 00:46:44,109
quite a portrait of him don't we Bernie

954
00:46:50,409 --> 00:46:47,359
the problem was that Bernie master

955
00:46:53,889 --> 00:46:50,419
hypnotist hypnotizing a lot of boys well

956
00:46:54,999 --> 00:46:53,899
he liked boys sake so there was that

957
00:46:58,059 --> 00:46:55,009
aspect of it too

958
00:47:00,609 --> 00:46:58,069
yeah that's another scary thing he

959
00:47:04,359 --> 00:47:00,619
couldn't be trusted and I learned that

960
00:47:06,969 --> 00:47:04,369
at toward the end and John Selby learned

961
00:47:09,429 --> 00:47:06,979
it along the way too

962
00:47:12,159 --> 00:47:09,439
but they the Institute warned me not to

963
00:47:13,179 --> 00:47:12,169
talk to him after he departed that he

964
00:47:15,670 --> 00:47:13,189
had betrayed them

965
00:47:18,279 --> 00:47:15,680
betrayed the research

966
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:18,289
is telling lies about them anything they

967
00:47:23,799 --> 00:47:21,650
could throw out there to say cut off

968
00:47:26,650 --> 00:47:23,809
contact with him if you want to stay

969
00:47:29,349 --> 00:47:26,660
part of the research and so I did I did

970
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:29,359
not talk to him for it was a couple of

971
00:47:36,430 --> 00:47:33,650
years I graduated and I was one of the

972
00:47:38,140 --> 00:47:36,440
first people accepted to be I was a

973
00:47:40,029 --> 00:47:38,150
fellowship student at the American Film

974
00:47:42,670 --> 00:47:40,039
Institute the Center for advanced film

975
00:47:47,620 --> 00:47:42,680
studies in Los Angeles you know that was

976
00:47:50,890 --> 00:47:47,630
sort of the the underpinning of my

977
00:47:53,890 --> 00:47:50,900
future career the fact that I became one

978
00:47:57,220 --> 00:47:53,900
of those fellows at the AFI that joined

979
00:48:00,880 --> 00:47:57,230
an honor it was and cansel be on the

980
00:48:03,759 --> 00:48:00,890
other hand well he was the seminary

981
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:03,769
student now I finished at the AFI and

982
00:48:09,519 --> 00:48:06,410
wanted to make my first feature film I

983
00:48:11,620 --> 00:48:09,529
made a student film there and I wanted

984
00:48:14,079 --> 00:48:11,630
this story blowing America's mind to be

985
00:48:15,789 --> 00:48:14,089
my first real project you know to get

986
00:48:18,579 --> 00:48:15,799
out there and get known at that time

987
00:48:23,890 --> 00:48:18,589
yeah I was in my mid-20s I had recently

988
00:48:29,170 --> 00:48:23,900
gotten married and I'm still married by

989
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:29,180
the way after all these years we

990
00:48:40,299 --> 00:48:37,450
congratulations to both of you that's

991
00:48:43,269 --> 00:48:40,309
really terrific thank you about a week

992
00:48:47,019 --> 00:48:43,279
ago so but I wanted this to be my first

993
00:48:47,859 --> 00:48:47,029
movie so I wanted to write it with John

994
00:48:50,620 --> 00:48:47,869
Selby

995
00:48:54,730 --> 00:48:50,630
so I had to find him and that was hard

996
00:48:57,069 --> 00:48:54,740
and he was in Northern California I

997
00:49:02,410 --> 00:48:57,079
think he was in San Raphael at that

998
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:02,420
point San Rafael and it was awkward when

999
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:04,130
I got him on the phone and we hadn't

1000
00:49:07,779 --> 00:49:05,930
talked in a couple of years and you know

1001
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:07,789
the Institute to turn him into the

1002
00:49:13,630 --> 00:49:10,130
boogey man and so there was a sort of

1003
00:49:15,910 --> 00:49:13,640
ice between us at the beginning I had to

1004
00:49:18,759 --> 00:49:15,920
break to tell him look I left the

1005
00:49:21,670 --> 00:49:18,769
Institute too I came to understand all

1006
00:49:24,249 --> 00:49:21,680
those warnings you gave me I think we

1007
00:49:27,670 --> 00:49:24,259
should do it as a book he said come on

1008
00:49:29,559 --> 00:49:27,680
up here and let's talk about it so we

1009
00:49:32,170 --> 00:49:29,569
quickly decided to start working on it

1010
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:32,180
and then he came down to Los Angeles you

1011
00:49:40,839 --> 00:49:33,890
know he sat in on some of the seminars

1012
00:49:43,690 --> 00:49:40,849
at the AFI and we we worked on this

1013
00:49:45,789 --> 00:49:43,700
actively for well over a year back then

1014
00:49:52,779 --> 00:49:45,799
a year and a half maybe but we just

1015
00:49:55,900 --> 00:49:52,789
couldn't finish it now in 1977 that is

1016
00:49:59,019 --> 00:49:55,910
when MKULTRA the mind-control

1017
00:50:00,579 --> 00:49:59,029
experiments were exposed and we learned

1018
00:50:02,349 --> 00:50:00,589
about it for the first time they were

1019
00:50:05,499 --> 00:50:02,359
newspaper headlines across the whole

1020
00:50:07,089 --> 00:50:05,509
country every newspaper we've got a lot

1021
00:50:12,089 --> 00:50:07,099
of those headlines in the in the book

1022
00:50:14,799 --> 00:50:12,099
did you find that helpful Patricia yes

1023
00:50:17,259 --> 00:50:14,809
really like seeing that I mean it gave a

1024
00:50:19,390 --> 00:50:17,269
whole other sense of reality and a lot

1025
00:50:24,569 --> 00:50:19,400
of them are from the New York Times yes

1026
00:50:26,740 --> 00:50:24,579
New York Times we're talking major

1027
00:50:28,359 --> 00:50:26,750
influential media was covering us yeah

1028
00:50:30,490 --> 00:50:28,369
we have the headline of the New York

1029
00:50:31,870 --> 00:50:30,500
Times of the CIA telling Columbia

1030
00:50:37,660 --> 00:50:31,880
University and Princeton

1031
00:50:40,779 --> 00:50:37,670
of the secret behavioral research so and

1032
00:50:45,630 --> 00:50:40,789
then the Los Angeles Times wrote an

1033
00:50:48,999 --> 00:50:45,640
editorial the headline was the CIA :

1034
00:50:51,130 --> 00:50:49,009
blowin America's mind and they talked

1035
00:50:52,799 --> 00:50:51,140
about how the danger confronting the

1036
00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:52,809
American people was how do you get the

1037
00:50:58,930 --> 00:50:56,930
CIA to cease and desist on doing things

1038
00:51:03,309 --> 00:50:58,940
that undermine the very freedoms that

1039
00:51:05,589 --> 00:51:03,319
they were formed to protect so we we

1040
00:51:07,720 --> 00:51:05,599
like that expression blowing America's

1041
00:51:10,029 --> 00:51:07,730
mind and it eventually became the title

1042
00:51:11,170 --> 00:51:10,039
of our book we had like 20 other titles

1043
00:51:17,049 --> 00:51:11,180
along the way we couldn't quite decide

1044
00:51:19,450 --> 00:51:17,059
but that was perfect and then we tried

1045
00:51:21,130 --> 00:51:19,460
to finish the book in 1977 when these

1046
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:21,140
headlines came out we worked on it

1047
00:51:26,769 --> 00:51:23,210
probably for another year now we

1048
00:51:29,620 --> 00:51:26,779
couldn't quite get it so we tried a

1049
00:51:32,950 --> 00:51:29,630
couple more times through the years but

1050
00:51:35,410 --> 00:51:32,960
this was gathering dust in a drawer John

1051
00:51:37,509 --> 00:51:35,420
Selby was traveling the world he was

1052
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:37,519
becoming a well-known writer and a

1053
00:51:45,020 --> 00:51:40,450
popular writer mainly of popular

1054
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:45,030
psychology popular philosophy and

1055
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:49,210
adventure stories so he wrote a lot of

1056
00:51:58,319 --> 00:51:53,130
books he went to he was in West Germany

1057
00:52:00,240 --> 00:51:58,329
he married a lady from Germany before

1058
00:52:05,130 --> 00:52:00,250
that he was in Mexico is in South

1059
00:52:09,270 --> 00:52:05,140
America in wild parts he was in South

1060
00:52:11,700 --> 00:52:09,280
Africa and then he was in Hawaii and the

1061
00:52:16,380 --> 00:52:11,710
island of Kauai II for it must have been

1062
00:52:18,630 --> 00:52:16,390
maybe 15-20 years he lived you know in

1063
00:52:22,109 --> 00:52:18,640
Kauai in the wilds you know I mean he

1064
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:22,119
just pushed society away he wrote his

1065
00:52:27,630 --> 00:52:25,810
books became popular you know very good

1066
00:52:30,270 --> 00:52:27,640
right I mean that's the one heartening

1067
00:52:33,870 --> 00:52:30,280
element I think both PK and I are happy

1068
00:52:36,060 --> 00:52:33,880
to see you're both so successful when

1069
00:52:38,849 --> 00:52:36,070
you as a Hollywood producer and writer

1070
00:52:41,849 --> 00:52:38,859
and John as a popular writer I mean

1071
00:52:44,250 --> 00:52:41,859
thank goodness it turned out well for

1072
00:52:46,170 --> 00:52:44,260
the two of you that way because I mean

1073
00:52:48,059 --> 00:52:46,180
it could have gone so bad and so fast

1074
00:52:50,510 --> 00:52:48,069
but yes thank goodness it and you have

1075
00:52:52,890 --> 00:52:50,520
both must have guardian angels that

1076
00:52:54,420 --> 00:52:52,900
helped you on your path because it was

1077
00:52:57,059 --> 00:52:54,430
fraught with all kinds of potential

1078
00:52:58,740 --> 00:52:57,069
disaster these people didn't have your

1079
00:53:01,740 --> 00:52:58,750
best interests at heart far from it

1080
00:53:03,240 --> 00:53:01,750
quite the opposite Beauty pigs they

1081
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:03,250
didn't care about what happened to you

1082
00:53:07,050 --> 00:53:05,650
they just wanted their research and your

1083
00:53:09,420 --> 00:53:07,060
expense they really didn't care now

1084
00:53:11,099 --> 00:53:09,430
here's a question hurt and I'm gonna

1085
00:53:12,089 --> 00:53:11,109
have to ask you this question it's a

1086
00:53:15,990 --> 00:53:12,099
great one

1087
00:53:17,579 --> 00:53:16,000
after to our next break but it's there's

1088
00:53:18,809 --> 00:53:17,589
a lot of great questions in our chat

1089
00:53:21,540 --> 00:53:18,819
room because we have the smartest

1090
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:21,550
audience and radio I must say so anyways

1091
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:24,130
we are gonna come back in just a minute

1092
00:53:27,540 --> 00:53:25,930
and a few minutes and we're gonna

1093
00:53:30,180 --> 00:53:27,550
continue this conversation with our

1094
00:53:33,470 --> 00:53:30,190
fabulous guest Paul Davis who has

1095
00:53:36,510 --> 00:53:33,480
written a book glowing America's my and

1096
00:53:38,670 --> 00:53:36,520
listen to supernatural girls a radio you

1097
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:38,680
will we will be right back and hopefully

1098
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:40,930
with you welcome back everyone to

1099
00:53:45,630 --> 00:53:42,970
supernatural girls radio I'm your host

1100
00:53:49,050 --> 00:53:45,640
Patricia Baker here with my co-host PK

1101
00:53:51,329 --> 00:53:49,060
and our guest a very exciting one

1102
00:53:53,490 --> 00:53:51,339
tonight's Hall Jeffrey David the author

1103
00:53:58,140 --> 00:53:53,500
of blowing a mare

1104
00:54:03,030 --> 00:53:58,150
mind Fabio see it if you're watching us

1105
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:03,040
an excellent book it is mind doesn't it

1106
00:54:07,380 --> 00:54:04,810
does blow your mind but it's also hard

1107
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:07,390
for me because of the relationships that

1108
00:54:13,290 --> 00:54:10,210
you learn about as these guys are going

1109
00:54:15,660 --> 00:54:13,300
through this very dangerous potentially

1110
00:54:18,180 --> 00:54:15,670
very dangerous journey with the CIA

1111
00:54:21,570 --> 00:54:18,190
behind it which they did not know at the

1112
00:54:24,350 --> 00:54:21,580
time so here a couple questions in the

1113
00:54:27,210 --> 00:54:24,360
chat room for you Paul

1114
00:54:29,070 --> 00:54:27,220
Ralph wants to know what reason did the

1115
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:29,080
government ever give to conduct these

1116
00:54:37,950 --> 00:54:33,850
experiments in secrecy well good

1117
00:54:43,650 --> 00:54:37,960
question when all of when the files came

1118
00:54:45,650 --> 00:54:43,660
out in 1977 the head of the CIA then

1119
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:45,660
under Jimmy Carter was Stansfield Turner

1120
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:48,370
this is not the same man that had put

1121
00:54:56,580 --> 00:54:52,450
these experiments into operation that

1122
00:54:59,310 --> 00:54:56,590
man was Richard Helms and Richard Helms

1123
00:55:04,140 --> 00:54:59,320
got into trouble during the iran-contra

1124
00:55:09,620 --> 00:55:04,150
scandal later on lying to Congress you

1125
00:55:15,180 --> 00:55:09,630
know he was he was fined $1,500 for his

1126
00:55:17,490 --> 00:55:15,190
missteps but Stansfield Turner wanted to

1127
00:55:20,610 --> 00:55:17,500
give reasons to the public because he

1128
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:20,620
when this came out he wanted to say look

1129
00:55:25,740 --> 00:55:23,050
the new administration here this is not

1130
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:25,750
what we do you know this shocked us as

1131
00:55:30,090 --> 00:55:28,330
much as it did you there's a quota of

1132
00:55:33,210 --> 00:55:30,100
him from the New York Times saying he

1133
00:55:36,720 --> 00:55:33,220
finds this abhorrent that the agencies

1134
00:55:39,570 --> 00:55:36,730
leadership allowed it to get involved in

1135
00:55:42,720 --> 00:55:39,580
this and they had Senate hearings for

1136
00:55:44,190 --> 00:55:42,730
two days and Ted Kennedy was involved

1137
00:55:47,460 --> 00:55:44,200
and they used those hearings basically

1138
00:55:50,610 --> 00:55:47,470
to say you've heard about MKULTRA it's

1139
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:50,620
part of the CIA's past it's over it

1140
00:55:56,550 --> 00:55:54,130
won't happen again so but as far as the

1141
00:55:58,650 --> 00:55:56,560
night Jesus died no reasons it was done

1142
00:56:00,990 --> 00:55:58,660
you know they had their their missions

1143
00:56:04,610 --> 00:56:01,000
they had their goals they one of the

1144
00:56:07,140 --> 00:56:04,620
things they hope to find was a way and

1145
00:56:09,900 --> 00:56:07,150
forgive me if I mentioned this

1146
00:56:12,300 --> 00:56:09,910
previously but to erase the memory of

1147
00:56:15,210 --> 00:56:12,310
retiring CIA agents of everything

1148
00:56:16,710 --> 00:56:15,220
classified they did that is amazing to

1149
00:56:18,270 --> 00:56:16,720
me that that's what they were looking to

1150
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:18,280
do oh my god

1151
00:56:20,730 --> 00:56:19,450
so here these people who give their

1152
00:56:24,240 --> 00:56:20,740
lives in service and now we're gonna

1153
00:56:26,370 --> 00:56:24,250
erase your memory yeah their mind in a

1154
00:56:28,170 --> 00:56:26,380
permanent way they were also looking for

1155
00:56:29,190 --> 00:56:28,180
the perfect drug to make soldiers lay

1156
00:56:32,460 --> 00:56:29,200
down their weapons on the battlefield

1157
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:32,470
enemy soldiers so they you know they

1158
00:56:35,940 --> 00:56:34,090
felt during the heat of the Cold War

1159
00:56:37,710 --> 00:56:35,950
that they had the justification for what

1160
00:56:42,030 --> 00:56:37,720
they did but they there were so many

1161
00:56:45,390 --> 00:56:42,040
innocent Americans who were damaged by

1162
00:56:47,550 --> 00:56:45,400
this a few of them sued there was a

1163
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:47,560
famous lawsuit over it involving dr.

1164
00:56:52,140 --> 00:56:49,330
Cameron up in McGill University in

1165
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:52,150
Canada who was doing part of MKULTRA and

1166
00:56:59,130 --> 00:56:55,210
had really damaged some patients who

1167
00:57:01,830 --> 00:56:59,140
came to him not that seriously ill not

1168
00:57:04,700 --> 00:57:01,840
seriously mentally ill but with extreme

1169
00:57:08,550 --> 00:57:04,710
anxiety or post-traumatic treta stress

1170
00:57:10,830 --> 00:57:08,560
trauma and what he did to them just

1171
00:57:12,570 --> 00:57:10,840
ruined their lives I mean he put them

1172
00:57:14,820 --> 00:57:12,580
through I mean you know I don't know if

1173
00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:14,830
the Nazis could have imagined those

1174
00:57:19,980 --> 00:57:18,130
nights and so there was a lawsuit and

1175
00:57:23,940 --> 00:57:19,990
the CIA settled that lawsuit with those

1176
00:57:26,310 --> 00:57:23,950
subjects but they said at the ted

1177
00:57:28,050 --> 00:57:26,320
kennedy hearing that they were gonna

1178
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:28,060
track down the people that were

1179
00:57:38,190 --> 00:57:30,490
victimized and made good by them and of

1180
00:57:40,740 --> 00:57:38,200
course that never happened I'm sorry no

1181
00:57:42,330 --> 00:57:40,750
I just say that that that we weren't

1182
00:57:48,630 --> 00:57:42,340
able to finish the book until last year

1183
00:57:51,380 --> 00:57:48,640
2017 I had you know I turned 70 a year

1184
00:57:56,670 --> 00:57:51,390
ago in February I have white hair now

1185
00:57:58,380 --> 00:57:56,680
and I talked to John Selby we hadn't

1186
00:58:01,290 --> 00:57:58,390
talked very frequently and I said you

1187
00:58:02,910 --> 00:58:01,300
know are we gonna finish it you know or

1188
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:02,920
is this gonna get out there while we're

1189
00:58:06,300 --> 00:58:05,050
still above ground you know because it's

1190
00:58:09,900 --> 00:58:06,310
it's not going to get out there when

1191
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:09,910
we're below ground that's for sure so I

1192
00:58:16,110 --> 00:58:13,210
have I have a production company yellow

1193
00:58:17,670 --> 00:58:16,120
hat Productions Inc and the vision of

1194
00:58:20,550 --> 00:58:17,680
that is the publishing company yellow

1195
00:58:22,380 --> 00:58:20,560
hat publishing waiting for New York to

1196
00:58:24,890 --> 00:58:22,390
decide to publish this book I mean you

1197
00:58:30,540 --> 00:58:24,900
drop dead 20 times before you get it yes

1198
00:58:32,790 --> 00:58:30,550
and so I said to John look let my yellow

1199
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:32,800
hat publishing be the publisher I'll

1200
00:58:36,330 --> 00:58:34,330
take care of everything all we have to

1201
00:58:37,650 --> 00:58:36,340
do is finish it we have more work to do

1202
00:58:40,530 --> 00:58:37,660
there's things we haven't tied together

1203
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:40,540
and so we reread everything we had done

1204
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:43,090
before and we knew that we could put all

1205
00:58:48,330 --> 00:58:46,210
kinds of details and additional touches

1206
00:58:50,310 --> 00:58:48,340
to you know pull everything together

1207
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:50,320
make it right and then the epilogue that

1208
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:53,050
tells what happened afterwards and we

1209
00:58:57,900 --> 00:58:56,290
both feel that there was some benefit to

1210
00:59:01,260 --> 00:58:57,910
us as being part of it it wasn't all

1211
00:59:04,110 --> 00:59:01,270
dark that you know learning hypnosis it

1212
00:59:06,330 --> 00:59:04,120
was a good predecessor for then learning

1213
00:59:08,460 --> 00:59:06,340
meditation maybe but I think the main

1214
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:08,470
thing is that when we both rebelled

1215
00:59:14,070 --> 00:59:10,330
against the manipulation in the dark

1216
00:59:15,690 --> 00:59:14,080
side of this and broke free I think we

1217
00:59:18,870 --> 00:59:15,700
each in our own way became more

1218
00:59:21,060 --> 00:59:18,880
courageous people and some hardened part

1219
00:59:22,380 --> 00:59:21,070
of that courage enabled me to have the

1220
00:59:25,490 --> 00:59:22,390
career that I've had of making

1221
00:59:28,260 --> 00:59:25,500
controversial films in Hollywood

1222
00:59:30,990 --> 00:59:28,270
independent films that I've had the good

1223
00:59:35,220 --> 00:59:31,000
fortune to have them put out there by

1224
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:35,230
NBCUniversal one after the other films

1225
00:59:39,690 --> 00:59:37,450
that Hollywood wouldn't decide to make I

1226
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:39,700
got the made I produced and directed

1227
00:59:44,940 --> 00:59:42,610
them and when they were done was able to

1228
00:59:47,490 --> 00:59:44,950
have NBCUniversal be my main distributor

1229
00:59:49,050 --> 00:59:47,500
Showtime did the movie Roswell which I

1230
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:49,060
did with Kyle MacLachlan and Martin

1231
00:59:57,450 --> 00:59:52,690
Sheen and Dwight Yoakam and then there

1232
00:59:59,760 --> 00:59:57,460
was Jesus in India which attracted a lot

1233
01:00:02,640 --> 00:59:59,770
of interest they released and is soon

1234
01:00:04,770 --> 01:00:02,650
gonna be shown in Italy they were

1235
01:00:07,260 --> 01:00:04,780
working on the Italian subtitles now I'm

1236
01:00:10,050 --> 01:00:07,270
heading for Italy in May and then there

1237
01:00:14,130 --> 01:00:10,060
was the life-after-death project was

1238
01:00:16,170 --> 01:00:14,140
another one that Universal did the

1239
01:00:17,970 --> 01:00:16,180
sci-fi boys was not so controversial

1240
01:00:20,670 --> 01:00:17,980
that was about the history of special

1241
01:00:22,770 --> 01:00:20,680
effects and movies was really really

1242
01:00:24,900 --> 01:00:22,780
successful and Peter Jackson helped me

1243
01:00:29,730 --> 01:00:24,910
so you know I had this story

1244
01:00:32,430 --> 01:00:29,740
career it went well and last year I said

1245
01:00:35,430 --> 01:00:32,440
to Selby look you know we're we're not

1246
01:00:37,110 --> 01:00:35,440
young men anymore let's finish the book

1247
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:37,120
let's put it out and he completely

1248
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:39,250
agreed we worked really hard finishing

1249
01:00:44,340 --> 01:00:41,770
it for around five months last year and

1250
01:00:46,560 --> 01:00:44,350
here it is now it's just been blowing

1251
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:46,570
America's mind has just been out for a

1252
01:00:53,430 --> 01:00:50,770
little over a month and I'm out there

1253
01:00:54,870 --> 01:00:53,440
talking about it and occasionally John

1254
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:54,880
Selby is out there talking about it -

1255
01:00:58,770 --> 01:00:56,770
but he it's harder for him than it is

1256
01:01:06,810 --> 01:00:58,780
for me you know I can talk about him

1257
01:01:09,390 --> 01:01:06,820
easier you're so full of the information

1258
01:01:10,530 --> 01:01:09,400
that just keeps us mesmerized in which

1259
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:10,540
what's coming next

1260
01:01:15,900 --> 01:01:14,410
yes piqué piqué I wanted to mention

1261
01:01:17,940 --> 01:01:15,910
because when we were in break I

1262
01:01:21,630 --> 01:01:17,950
mentioned this I was on your show before

1263
01:01:22,590 --> 01:01:21,640
and we talked about my book an atheist

1264
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:22,600
in heaven

1265
01:01:28,100 --> 01:01:24,730
the ultimate evidence for life after

1266
01:01:31,650 --> 01:01:28,110
death and that will that book of 2016

1267
01:01:33,990 --> 01:01:31,660
was it grew out of the film I made in

1268
01:01:36,180 --> 01:01:34,000
2013 called the life after death project

1269
01:01:38,580 --> 01:01:36,190
this was an examination of what I think

1270
01:01:40,140 --> 01:01:38,590
is some of the best evidence that there

1271
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:40,150
is a spirit world and there can be

1272
01:01:44,910 --> 01:01:42,010
contact between the spirit world in our

1273
01:01:49,950 --> 01:01:44,920
world and you're from Tucson you said

1274
01:01:52,830 --> 01:01:49,960
I'm in Tucson myself oh you're in Tucson

1275
01:01:54,810 --> 01:01:52,840
is somebody from Tucson but you live in

1276
01:01:57,150 --> 01:01:54,820
Tucson so mind you something my

1277
01:02:02,490 --> 01:01:57,160
co-author on that book is a Tucson guy

1278
01:02:04,830 --> 01:02:02,500
now it's Gary dr. Gary Schwartz yes Gary

1279
01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:04,840
Gary Schwartz yes for the he's a

1280
01:02:11,130 --> 01:02:08,530
professor at the they yes University of

1281
01:02:13,410 --> 01:02:11,140
Arizona and he comes from Harvard and

1282
01:02:16,490 --> 01:02:13,420
Yale psychology background he's

1283
01:02:20,370 --> 01:02:16,500
researched life after death forever and

1284
01:02:23,220 --> 01:02:20,380
he was in my movie the life after death

1285
01:02:23,670 --> 01:02:23,230
project and then he co-wrote an atheist

1286
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:23,680
in heaven

1287
01:02:29,130 --> 01:02:25,810
and I'd like your listeners to know you

1288
01:02:30,990 --> 01:02:29,140
can find all my projects at amazon.com I

1289
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:31,000
think maybe we're as well might be hard

1290
01:02:36,630 --> 01:02:32,530
to find but if you want to see

1291
01:02:38,530 --> 01:02:36,640
everything I've done I am DB dot-com the

1292
01:02:41,770 --> 01:02:38,540
Internet Movie Database

1293
01:02:44,470 --> 01:02:41,780
David's I started with the transformer

1294
01:02:46,750 --> 01:02:44,480
show I was production coordinator on 79

1295
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:46,760
of the cartoons that you guys grew up

1296
01:02:55,870 --> 01:02:53,690
with then George Lucas had me and my

1297
01:02:57,700 --> 01:02:55,880
wife writes 6 of the Star Wars sequel

1298
01:03:01,660 --> 01:02:57,710
books starting with the glove of Darth

1299
01:03:03,310 --> 01:03:01,670
Vader sold 5 million copies right I was

1300
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:03,320
doing all that but I couldn't finish my

1301
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:08,090
own book blowing America's mind that's

1302
01:03:14,860 --> 01:03:12,770
my story and we do hope that this book

1303
01:03:16,660 --> 01:03:14,870
will be turned into a television project

1304
01:03:23,110 --> 01:03:16,670
we think it would be great wouldn't it

1305
01:03:25,270 --> 01:03:23,120
be fabulous we got great characters here

1306
01:03:28,270 --> 01:03:25,280
you've got so many elements that come

1307
01:03:30,250 --> 01:03:28,280
together to make a really amazing story

1308
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:30,260
well here's another question for you we

1309
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:31,850
got to get to these or these people are

1310
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:34,970
gonna be mad at me Conti is asking I'd

1311
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:37,850
like to ask did you get paid for the

1312
01:03:45,190 --> 01:03:42,410
experiments they did on you yes yes that

1313
01:03:47,260 --> 01:03:45,200
that it was employment you know it was

1314
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:47,270
legitimate employment so I can't say I

1315
01:03:51,730 --> 01:03:49,730
walked into it completely unknowingly

1316
01:03:54,340 --> 01:03:51,740
it's just that I didn't know what they

1317
01:03:57,190 --> 01:03:54,350
were gonna do to me or that the CIA was

1318
01:04:00,310 --> 01:03:57,200
behind it but yes I was I was a paid

1319
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:00,320
subject and so is John Selby okay and

1320
01:04:03,730 --> 01:04:02,570
then here's a question from Thomas says

1321
01:04:05,830 --> 01:04:03,740
hello girls

1322
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:05,840
is there any lost footage of these

1323
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:09,770
experiments that has ever turned up it's

1324
01:04:15,070 --> 01:04:12,770
a good question I don't of our

1325
01:04:16,690 --> 01:04:15,080
experiment than what we were part of it

1326
01:04:18,550 --> 01:04:16,700
New Jersey neuropsych I don't think

1327
01:04:21,130 --> 01:04:18,560
there ever was any footage that I know

1328
01:04:22,450 --> 01:04:21,140
of it was before video it wasn't when

1329
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:22,460
you could just set up a video camera

1330
01:04:29,140 --> 01:04:26,570
record something that way what about if

1331
01:04:32,620 --> 01:04:29,150
there were I don't know I mean I imagine

1332
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:32,630
the doctors did it but whatever became

1333
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:35,330
of those I mean when when they stopped

1334
01:04:39,700 --> 01:04:37,970
being the bureau of research in New

1335
01:04:41,950 --> 01:04:39,710
Jersey neuropsychiatric Institute and

1336
01:04:42,340 --> 01:04:41,960
became the New Jersey Developmental

1337
01:04:44,230 --> 01:04:42,350
Center

1338
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:44,240
you know they retired are like all their

1339
01:04:47,950 --> 01:04:45,770
files you know who knows what was

1340
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:47,960
destroyed or buried at that time so I

1341
01:04:55,810 --> 01:04:52,010
wish we had something

1342
01:04:57,400 --> 01:04:55,820
hmm yes now one more question cuz I know

1343
01:04:59,740 --> 01:04:57,410
you have to go a little bit early

1344
01:05:02,980 --> 01:04:59,750
tonight unfortunately but we have more

1345
01:05:05,950 --> 01:05:02,990
things to share their audience and so

1346
01:05:07,990 --> 01:05:05,960
here is a question from supernova have

1347
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:08,000
you ever found out who the main players

1348
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:11,090
behind these experiments were what's

1349
01:05:15,970 --> 01:05:12,650
that noise in the background yeah we're

1350
01:05:20,140 --> 01:05:15,980
definitely hearing there's good it's

1351
01:05:25,330 --> 01:05:20,150
just it's just it's just up so CIA

1352
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:25,340
yes well specifically specifically a man

1353
01:05:32,230 --> 01:05:30,050
named Sidney Gottlieb was appointed a

1354
01:05:35,230 --> 01:05:32,240
head of all the MKULTRA projects by

1355
01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:35,240
Richard Helms so he oversaw it all and

1356
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:36,530
he was the one who was ordered to

1357
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:38,090
destroy all the documents by Richard

1358
01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:41,450
Holmes and somehow 20 boxes of documents

1359
01:05:46,710 --> 01:05:44,450
escaped destruction they were found at

1360
01:05:51,070 --> 01:05:46,720
Langley Virginia at the CIA headquarters

1361
01:05:54,220 --> 01:05:51,080
in 1970 seven years later I mean that

1362
01:05:55,780 --> 01:05:54,230
the files went back to 1952 but they

1363
01:05:58,390 --> 01:05:55,790
were in boxes that were mislabeled

1364
01:06:01,630 --> 01:05:58,400
deliberately I'm sure as the financial

1365
01:06:04,330 --> 01:06:01,640
records of some other project so Sidney

1366
01:06:07,780 --> 01:06:04,340
Gottlieb was in charge of it all and you

1367
01:06:09,580 --> 01:06:07,790
know and he was actually you know you

1368
01:06:12,550 --> 01:06:09,590
read the experiments and he sounds like

1369
01:06:15,970 --> 01:06:12,560
he's an old Nazi you read about his life

1370
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:15,980
and you read that when he retired he he

1371
01:06:25,060 --> 01:06:17,930
devoted his whole life to his biggest

1372
01:06:26,859 --> 01:06:25,070
hobby which was folk dancing right and

1373
01:06:29,849 --> 01:06:26,869
he had a club foot so how does somebody

1374
01:06:32,740 --> 01:06:29,859
want a club thanks devote themselves to

1375
01:06:35,470 --> 01:06:32,750
yeah these people who work for the CIA

1376
01:06:37,210 --> 01:06:35,480
then they had human lives too they had

1377
01:06:39,609 --> 01:06:37,220
they were interesting personalities the

1378
01:06:40,780 --> 01:06:39,619
story of jim Angleton is massively

1379
01:06:42,940 --> 01:06:40,790
interesting he was head of

1380
01:06:46,720 --> 01:06:42,950
counterintelligence he figures into my

1381
01:06:49,270 --> 01:06:46,730
movie Marilyn Monroe Declassified the

1382
01:06:51,730 --> 01:06:49,280
CIA's involvement with Mayer the death

1383
01:06:59,530 --> 01:06:51,740
of Marilyn Monroe you can see that movie

1384
01:07:02,200 --> 01:06:59,540
Amazon Prime you'll learn a lot this

1385
01:07:04,599 --> 01:07:02,210
book yeah that's that's all I know I

1386
01:07:05,620 --> 01:07:04,609
have things to watch it's amazing

1387
01:07:07,540 --> 01:07:05,630
definitely

1388
01:07:09,610 --> 01:07:07,550
thank you because I was there's been

1389
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:09,620
kind of not so many things that are good

1390
01:07:13,180 --> 01:07:11,810
so now we know to watch your stuff at

1391
01:07:14,410 --> 01:07:13,190
least we'll be entertained and we'll

1392
01:07:15,910 --> 01:07:14,420
learn something at the same time

1393
01:07:19,150 --> 01:07:15,920
couldn't ask for anything better

1394
01:07:20,890 --> 01:07:19,160
there's also my biography of Timothy

1395
01:07:22,420 --> 01:07:20,900
Leary Timothy Leary is dead

1396
01:07:24,900 --> 01:07:22,430
you know I filmed that 20 years or so

1397
01:07:28,570 --> 01:07:24,910
after the Institute experience and

1398
01:07:30,820 --> 01:07:28,580
Timothy Leary enlisted me to do his

1399
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:30,830
biography and that you can find online

1400
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:31,370
now too

1401
01:07:35,830 --> 01:07:34,010
Timothy Leary do you have a website that

1402
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:35,840
lists all of your projects

1403
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:40,130
well here's a couple of websites I'll

1404
01:07:46,210 --> 01:07:43,730
suggest if you go to paul davids dot-com

1405
01:07:48,070 --> 01:07:46,220
that's my old website it's not quite up

1406
01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:48,080
to date it doesn't have the couple

1407
01:07:53,050 --> 01:07:50,090
latest but it has all the early projects

1408
01:07:58,000 --> 01:07:53,060
a lot about them and then there's paul

1409
01:08:01,540 --> 01:07:58,010
davids - artist calm I'm an artist and

1410
01:08:05,770 --> 01:08:01,550
that mainly has a couple hundred of my

1411
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:05,780
works of art but it also as you go down

1412
01:08:11,290 --> 01:08:07,490
the menu you'll find things about my

1413
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:11,300
books and about my films and if you go

1414
01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:14,810
to as I said I am DB comm the internet

1415
01:08:19,090 --> 01:08:17,330
movie database paul davids but in my

1416
01:08:20,890 --> 01:08:19,100
name there and everything I've done

1417
01:08:24,420 --> 01:08:20,900
we'll come up including the name of

1418
01:08:26,620 --> 01:08:24,430
every one of those 79 transformers shows

1419
01:08:28,630 --> 01:08:26,630
yeah well that'll be great for our

1420
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:28,640
audience to go and learn more about your

1421
01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:30,530
projects and watch them and read them

1422
01:08:35,650 --> 01:08:33,650
again your delightful guest Paul as

1423
01:08:38,110 --> 01:08:35,660
always we're so happy to have you on the

1424
01:08:40,240 --> 01:08:38,120
show with us tonight and we thank you

1425
01:08:43,030 --> 01:08:40,250
for writing this book also because it's

1426
01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:43,040
something we all need to read there it

1427
01:08:47,710 --> 01:08:44,810
is again don't forget lowing that's

1428
01:08:49,180 --> 01:08:47,720
right America's mind it's a great book

1429
01:08:51,490 --> 01:08:49,190
everybody Tricia

1430
01:08:53,770 --> 01:08:51,500
it's a-you know I said it's at Amazon I

1431
01:08:55,570 --> 01:08:53,780
want to say it's the printed book that

1432
01:09:01,270 --> 01:08:55,580
you have but it's also available on

1433
01:09:03,070 --> 01:09:01,280
Kindle the electronic version if you

1434
01:09:05,290 --> 01:09:03,080
have another ebook reader that's not

1435
01:09:07,150 --> 01:09:05,300
Kindle you can find that out there too

1436
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:07,160
you know go to I think Baker and Taylor

1437
01:09:18,970 --> 01:09:17,570
you know just search thank you so much

1438
01:09:21,280 --> 01:09:18,980
for your time tonight we

1439
01:09:23,140 --> 01:09:21,290
really appreciate it what a delight and

1440
01:09:25,210 --> 01:09:23,150
you better keep us posted when this

1441
01:09:27,670 --> 01:09:25,220
comes out on TV so we can announce it to

1442
01:09:32,289 --> 01:09:27,680
our audience yes definitely I can only

1443
01:09:38,440 --> 01:09:32,299
hope it happens thank you both yes thank

1444
01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:38,450
you so much now everybody stay with us

1445
01:09:43,019 --> 01:09:40,250
because we're gonna be sharing some

1446
01:09:46,660 --> 01:09:43,029
information that you may want to hear

1447
01:09:48,729 --> 01:09:46,670
mm-hmm okay well that was very

1448
01:09:55,090 --> 01:09:48,739
interesting talking to Paul's great guy

1449
01:09:56,410 --> 01:09:55,100
oh yeah we had no idea that he was a

1450
01:09:58,750 --> 01:09:56,420
guinea pig for the CIA

1451
01:10:01,479 --> 01:09:58,760
oh yeah no that will hit all of that

1452
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:01,489
from a shut off quiet yeah well I think

1453
01:10:06,790 --> 01:10:03,410
that he survived it some people didn't

1454
01:10:08,860 --> 01:10:06,800
there were some people who died and and

1455
01:10:10,150 --> 01:10:08,870
so he talked about people who whose

1456
01:10:13,570 --> 01:10:10,160
lives were ruined but there's those

1457
01:10:15,460 --> 01:10:13,580
people who died from some mkl nonsense

1458
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:15,470
so I think what what are the things that

1459
01:10:22,090 --> 01:10:18,410
he said he they held off doing the book

1460
01:10:25,450 --> 01:10:22,100
until after everyone had passed damn it

1461
01:10:28,300 --> 01:10:25,460
yeah I can understand that no conflict

1462
01:10:31,420 --> 01:10:28,310
this way yes because as he talks about

1463
01:10:33,610 --> 01:10:31,430
in the book John was threatened my a

1464
01:10:36,100 --> 01:10:33,620
couple of guys from the CIA who showed

1465
01:10:37,990 --> 01:10:36,110
up at his he was going to get in his car

1466
01:10:40,060 --> 01:10:38,000
and there they were and they threatened

1467
01:10:42,250 --> 01:10:40,070
him that if he did it again if he

1468
01:10:45,580 --> 01:10:42,260
divulged information to the press that

1469
01:10:47,800 --> 01:10:45,590
they would kill him stow it was serious

1470
01:10:49,690 --> 01:10:47,810
it was directed to the point now exactly

1471
01:10:52,030 --> 01:10:49,700
yeah no I can see why they waited so

1472
01:10:56,140 --> 01:10:52,040
long to finish it up yeah this is like

1473
01:10:58,150 --> 01:10:56,150
almost 50 years yeah and it just shows

1474
01:10:59,530 --> 01:10:58,160
the power of these agencies when they're

1475
01:11:02,080 --> 01:10:59,540
there doing things they really have no

1476
01:11:05,050 --> 01:11:02,090
business doing and especially with the

1477
01:11:06,610 --> 01:11:05,060
level of secrecy and deception so people

1478
01:11:09,040 --> 01:11:06,620
are able to make really good decisions

1479
01:11:10,390 --> 01:11:09,050
if they had known what was involved I'd

1480
01:11:12,250 --> 01:11:10,400
bet you anything they never would have

1481
01:11:14,140 --> 01:11:12,260
gone down that road with those people

1482
01:11:17,020 --> 01:11:14,150
well you know some people are risk

1483
01:11:19,270 --> 01:11:17,030
takers they get a thrill out of finding

1484
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:19,280
out something different but once they

1485
01:11:24,580 --> 01:11:22,010
got involved there really there was no

1486
01:11:26,950 --> 01:11:24,590
way to really get out no it was very

1487
01:11:29,979 --> 01:11:26,960
tough so even though their friend park

1488
01:11:31,540 --> 01:11:29,989
was trying to warn them yet still they

1489
01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:31,550
thought this was on the up-and-up and

1490
01:11:34,660 --> 01:11:32,690
they didn't realize

1491
01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:34,670
the shadowy figures behind all of this

1492
01:11:41,200 --> 01:11:38,330
so very interesting variant but we have

1493
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:41,210
a new show that we're going to be doing

1494
01:11:45,700 --> 01:11:43,730
and we wanted to tell everybody the

1495
01:11:48,460 --> 01:11:45,710
great details this is a prayer show

1496
01:11:51,370 --> 01:11:48,470
unlike any other prayer show that has

1497
01:11:55,360 --> 01:11:51,380
been out over the airwaves now mm-hmm

1498
01:11:58,450 --> 01:11:55,370
it's gonna be you PK and myself and also

1499
01:12:01,120 --> 01:11:58,460
george lugo and the name of the show is

1500
01:12:04,810 --> 01:12:01,130
when two or more are gathered because

1501
01:12:05,530 --> 01:12:04,820
when two or more are gathered anything

1502
01:12:10,060 --> 01:12:05,540
can happen

1503
01:12:12,610 --> 01:12:10,070
miracles happen and they have they have

1504
01:12:14,530 --> 01:12:12,620
we have successfully done this before

1505
01:12:17,380 --> 01:12:14,540
and we're going to be offering our

1506
01:12:19,750 --> 01:12:17,390
audience the opportunity to send to us

1507
01:12:22,390 --> 01:12:19,760
and this is on our website supernatural

1508
01:12:25,330 --> 01:12:22,400
girls calm all right at the top you can

1509
01:12:27,370 --> 01:12:25,340
send us an email of what you want

1510
01:12:28,930 --> 01:12:27,380
prayers for it can be for yourself that

1511
01:12:31,270 --> 01:12:28,940
can be for a friend a loved one it

1512
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:31,280
doesn't matter a situation that you want

1513
01:12:37,330 --> 01:12:34,610
resolved please send us your prayer send

1514
01:12:39,310 --> 01:12:37,340
us your story of why this is important

1515
01:12:41,710 --> 01:12:39,320
to you why you want this to have a

1516
01:12:43,420 --> 01:12:41,720
change in your life or a shift in

1517
01:12:45,910 --> 01:12:43,430
consciousness or whatever it is maybe

1518
01:12:48,580 --> 01:12:45,920
you want better health are you basing a

1519
01:12:51,340 --> 01:12:48,590
serious illness so send that information

1520
01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:51,350
to us include your name or the name of

1521
01:12:56,410 --> 01:12:54,770
the person you want us to pray for PK

1522
01:12:58,180 --> 01:12:56,420
you're gonna do their numbers now we're

1523
01:12:59,590 --> 01:12:58,190
not going to reveal the whole person's

1524
01:13:02,020 --> 01:12:59,600
name on the air that's not going to

1525
01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:02,030
happen Utley well it's the first name

1526
01:13:07,360 --> 01:13:03,770
only so the person knows we're praying

1527
01:13:09,730 --> 01:13:07,370
about them and PK is gonna offer insight

1528
01:13:12,970 --> 01:13:09,740
based on the number so we're gonna do

1529
01:13:17,170 --> 01:13:12,980
that and then George is going to offer

1530
01:13:20,200 --> 01:13:17,180
his psychic mediumship talents to also

1531
01:13:21,790 --> 01:13:20,210
further provide information for the

1532
01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:21,800
person we're going to be praying for and

1533
01:13:26,970 --> 01:13:23,810
then I'm going to bring in the spirit

1534
01:13:29,740 --> 01:13:26,980
team who are the spirit team

1535
01:13:31,930 --> 01:13:29,750
participants for this person we're going

1536
01:13:33,850 --> 01:13:31,940
to bring them in and we're also going to

1537
01:13:35,440 --> 01:13:33,860
bring in our own spirit team surround a

1538
01:13:37,630 --> 01:13:35,450
lot of power coming in from the other

1539
01:13:39,220 --> 01:13:37,640
side because as you know if it's just

1540
01:13:42,100 --> 01:13:39,230
one guardian angel that's all well and

1541
01:13:44,440 --> 01:13:42,110
good but if you have a team and now

1542
01:13:46,520 --> 01:13:44,450
you're going to have three teams plus

1543
01:13:48,020 --> 01:13:46,530
the mersen's team

1544
01:13:50,419 --> 01:13:48,030
this is going to be a very powerful

1545
01:13:52,669 --> 01:13:50,429
experience for everybody but most

1546
01:13:55,370 --> 01:13:52,679
specifically the person we're going to

1547
01:13:57,680 --> 01:13:55,380
be praying for so this nobody has ever

1548
01:14:00,020 --> 01:13:57,690
done anything like this before in this

1549
01:14:02,290 --> 01:14:00,030
format we're offering up so much

1550
01:14:04,879 --> 01:14:02,300
information it's obviously all free

1551
01:14:07,790 --> 01:14:04,889
we're doing this because we want to take

1552
01:14:09,529 --> 01:14:07,800
our work up another notch and give back

1553
01:14:13,399 --> 01:14:09,539
to our wonderful audience who's been

1554
01:14:16,129 --> 01:14:13,409
loyal and and loving us through the the

1555
01:14:17,689 --> 01:14:16,139
whole series of shows that we've done we

1556
01:14:20,270 --> 01:14:17,699
want to love you back and give you

1557
01:14:23,299 --> 01:14:20,280
something that you can participate in

1558
01:14:27,109 --> 01:14:23,309
you also as a prayer person you can join

1559
01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:27,119
us in the prayer or again you can say I

1560
01:14:31,160 --> 01:14:29,130
want prayers for me we will help you

1561
01:14:32,779 --> 01:14:31,170
with that so we're going to start that

1562
01:14:35,029 --> 01:14:32,789
very soon and we've already started

1563
01:14:37,430 --> 01:14:35,039
getting requests we are accumulating

1564
01:14:39,620 --> 01:14:37,440
them or going over them see how best we

1565
01:14:42,799 --> 01:14:39,630
can help these people and offer up a

1566
01:14:45,319 --> 01:14:42,809
prayer for them to have things shift in

1567
01:14:48,830 --> 01:14:45,329
a very beautiful positive and graceful

1568
01:14:52,010 --> 01:14:48,840
way in their lives so you're all invited

1569
01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:52,020
as participants you can pray with us for

1570
01:14:56,390 --> 01:14:54,570
these people who need prayers or you can

1571
01:14:58,700 --> 01:14:56,400
ask for prayers for yourself or someone

1572
01:15:01,430 --> 01:14:58,710
that you know so that's something that

1573
01:15:03,589 --> 01:15:01,440
we are starting right here on

1574
01:15:06,020 --> 01:15:03,599
supernatural radio and we'll give you

1575
01:15:08,990 --> 01:15:06,030
the date so that you'll know when to

1576
01:15:11,140 --> 01:15:09,000
join us and spread the word let people

1577
01:15:13,069 --> 01:15:11,150
know that something new that word yeah

1578
01:15:16,250 --> 01:15:13,079
this is going to be you're going to

1579
01:15:18,410 --> 01:15:16,260
never have too many prayers right I

1580
01:15:25,399 --> 01:15:18,420
can't either

1581
01:15:29,060 --> 01:15:25,409
I need all the help I can get with our

1582
01:15:31,279 --> 01:15:29,070
terrific audience and and just you know

1583
01:15:34,399 --> 01:15:31,289
share that power share it share the

1584
01:15:36,500 --> 01:15:34,409
presence of Spirit in our lives and

1585
01:15:37,250 --> 01:15:36,510
reach out to people who really need some

1586
01:15:40,669 --> 01:15:37,260
help right now

1587
01:15:42,950 --> 01:15:40,679
we know there's a lot we're going

1588
01:15:45,649 --> 01:15:42,960
through a lot emotionally and physically

1589
01:15:47,629 --> 01:15:45,659
in this lifetime and what's going on in

1590
01:15:49,490 --> 01:15:47,639
the world at large right now has many

1591
01:15:50,870 --> 01:15:49,500
people frightened it's scared because

1592
01:15:53,899 --> 01:15:50,880
they don't know what direction to go

1593
01:15:56,720 --> 01:15:53,909
I've had some people sudden either name

1594
01:15:58,430 --> 01:15:56,730
and a birthday just a month and day that

1595
01:16:00,350 --> 01:15:58,440
gives me a lot of information to be able

1596
01:16:02,240 --> 01:16:00,360
to help them and I know that

1597
01:16:05,530 --> 01:16:02,250
with Patricia jumping him with her parts

1598
01:16:09,649 --> 01:16:05,540
and George with his my goodness

1599
01:16:12,260 --> 01:16:09,659
you just can't manage to not be

1600
01:16:14,359 --> 01:16:12,270
successful yep we're going to make sure

1601
01:16:16,580 --> 01:16:14,369
that successful but whatever needs to

1602
01:16:18,470 --> 01:16:16,590
happen will happen in the most graceful

1603
01:16:21,890 --> 01:16:18,480
way I mean that's what this is all about

1604
01:16:23,959 --> 01:16:21,900
is I mean that the the things that we

1605
01:16:26,240 --> 01:16:23,969
bring to our audience I like to think

1606
01:16:28,640 --> 01:16:26,250
are going to help them either to expand

1607
01:16:30,500 --> 01:16:28,650
their consciousness or to improve their

1608
01:16:32,540 --> 01:16:30,510
lives in some way we are offering the

1609
01:16:34,550 --> 01:16:32,550
best of what we know and the best guests

1610
01:16:35,870 --> 01:16:34,560
that we can find so this is just taking

1611
01:16:40,220 --> 01:16:35,880
it to another level

1612
01:16:42,229 --> 01:16:40,230
so so people can can really feel the

1613
01:16:44,720 --> 01:16:42,239
power of the spirit and the power of the

1614
01:16:46,609 --> 01:16:44,730
source that surround all of us it's time

1615
01:16:48,590 --> 01:16:46,619
to tune in so we're going to help

1616
01:16:51,740 --> 01:16:48,600
everybody do it so if you're going to

1617
01:16:53,419 --> 01:16:51,750
join us as a prayer participant you're

1618
01:16:56,840 --> 01:16:53,429
gonna feel this too even though we're

1619
01:16:59,209 --> 01:16:56,850
focusing our prayer on some people who

1620
01:17:01,640 --> 01:16:59,219
have requested it you're also gonna feel

1621
01:17:05,270 --> 01:17:01,650
the pass through this and you will

1622
01:17:07,669 --> 01:17:05,280
benefit as well that it's like something

1623
01:17:10,100 --> 01:17:07,679
overflowing the more you put in the

1624
01:17:11,359 --> 01:17:10,110
bigger it gets the bigger it gets the

1625
01:17:14,359 --> 01:17:11,369
more people that are going to be

1626
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:14,369
embraced with it exactly so please tell

1627
01:17:17,540 --> 01:17:15,570
your friends you know if they're

1628
01:17:18,500 --> 01:17:17,550
interested in this kind of thing they're

1629
01:17:20,330 --> 01:17:18,510
welcome to join us

1630
01:17:23,209 --> 01:17:20,340
and we will have one of the biggest

1631
01:17:25,729 --> 01:17:23,219
prayer circles ever I know we will that

1632
01:17:29,209 --> 01:17:25,739
will we'll reach out and do the kind of

1633
01:17:30,979 --> 01:17:29,219
work that we always were meant to do and

1634
01:17:33,709 --> 01:17:30,989
so we're very happy to be offering this

1635
01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:33,719
to everybody in our audience and beyond

1636
01:17:38,689 --> 01:17:36,330
so be sure to share this information and

1637
01:17:40,459 --> 01:17:38,699
again go to our website supernatural

1638
01:17:42,280 --> 01:17:40,469
girls comm that's where you will find

1639
01:17:46,700 --> 01:17:42,290
the emails that you can send the prayer

1640
01:17:49,129 --> 01:17:46,710
to and you'll also find direct contact

1641
01:17:51,109 --> 01:17:49,139
for our PK a direct contact for me if

1642
01:17:52,010 --> 01:17:51,119
you have any questions you can send

1643
01:17:54,620 --> 01:17:52,020
those in as well

1644
01:17:56,689 --> 01:17:54,630
and we will answer you so emotive

1645
01:17:58,300 --> 01:17:56,699
supernatural girls with a Z comm go to

1646
01:18:04,580 --> 01:17:58,310
our Facebook page you've got some

1647
01:18:05,720 --> 01:18:04,590
terrific stories this week oh my god and

1648
01:18:09,020 --> 01:18:05,730
we've captured a lot of them about

1649
01:18:10,040 --> 01:18:09,030
invisibility and UFOs and all kinds of

1650
01:18:12,260 --> 01:18:10,050
great stuff and that's all on our

1651
01:18:13,939 --> 01:18:12,270
Facebook page so be sure to like us and

1652
01:18:14,180 --> 01:18:13,949
follow us there to keep in touch with

1653
01:18:16,550 --> 01:18:14,190
every

1654
01:18:18,740 --> 01:18:16,560
thing well and we also don't from that

1655
01:18:21,860 --> 01:18:18,750
what's taken place today with the

1656
01:18:23,000 --> 01:18:21,870
trifecta with the moon it's such we know

1657
01:18:25,729 --> 01:18:23,010
that there's going to be some shake

1658
01:18:28,010 --> 01:18:25,739
rattle and roll coming very soon around

1659
01:18:30,709 --> 01:18:28,020
all of us so let's all cry together and

1660
01:18:31,729 --> 01:18:30,719
hold hands and hang on that sounds like

1661
01:18:34,880 --> 01:18:31,739
a plan to me

1662
01:18:36,350 --> 01:18:34,890
so everybody until next week we will see

1663
01:18:37,040 --> 01:18:36,360
you on the blue Highway good night

1664
01:18:38,100 --> 01:18:37,050
everybody